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Rotten Belles - a happier redux


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Walk 5. Sybelle is another costing model, so unless we can also count any synergies any other model gives to another as part of their cost, example Tots being 4ss models that can auto sprint with the mask twice every turn, making them walk 10 significant models with Pounce and black blood, then please do not take synergistic models into account.

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Rick.  Slaying my Stalkers!

Oh yeah! That game! I still feel bad. Though you should sit down with Sharpobjects (brett) and have him give you a little pointers about Lady J. I'm still having nightmares!

 

That game though, perfect example of what I'm talking about with Bells. So what if I can't kill Fransico turn 1 cause you properly hid him, I"ll get me a few Witchling Stalkers. No body likes being down two or three models turn 2!

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Walk 5. Sybelle is another costing model, so unless we can also count any synergies any other model gives to another as part of their cost, example Tots being 4ss models that can auto sprint with the mask twice every turn, making them walk 10 significant models with Pounce and black blood, then please do not take synergistic models into account.

Not sure how you come to this conclusion. Synergies that make models better are factors. Consider the new generic upgrades. Samurai is fine models, so far nothing of real note coming down the pipeline about them. Yet, if you take the generic that gives them REACTIVATE and a condition that doesn't allow them to take damage that turn, well now you got something to talk about. Synergies are not to be excluded. Tots can grow into Young Nephilum, they are excellent vehicles for blood pustule, these are factors when considering the model.

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I think what Fetid was meaning is that you can't include synergies in the base cost of the model - it's not two belles with Wk 6 for 10 stones, it's two belles and Sybelle for Wk 6, which is 19 stones (I think?)

Please remember though, this isn't supposed to be a 'change this about belles thread', and testing them with altered rules will not actually have any weight. Time and lots of reports where they completely dominate will, while playing games with your own rules means the data is pretty much useless as balance evidence (as they have to be conclusively, game warpingly broken now, not just fine with different stats, to get looked at for a change).

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Mako's got it. Someone said 5 Stones for walk 6, which was entirely wrong, its 13 stones and positioning required for walk 6. Don't forget that because it's an Aura, Sybelle actually needs to have LoS to the benefiting belle as well, so you can't deploy Sybelle right next to a wall, and the belle on the other side out of LoS and get the walk bonus unless Sybelle moves first and gets into LoS.

 

My point was if we are going to compare costs we have to compare what the model does base. Synergies are part of the cost of the model that brings the synergy. Otherwise someone could complain that Terror Tots are 4 SS models with walk 10, Pounce, automatically have a trigger that lets them always cheat except against impossible to wound, and automatically get to sac themselves and summon a young if they kill anything, and so on.

 

When complaining about a model for cost, limit your points to what the model itself does for its cost.Iif you bring synergies into it then you have to include the costs it took to get those synergies as well, or your argument has no solidity.

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I'm still not quite clear on what the Belle spam list actually does to win - the strength of the tactic seems to rely on pulling models across the board and killing them from relative safety, but how often do we hear the mantra that killing models doesn't win games? Being able to move the enemy around is cool and all, but how do you contest enemy quarters, defend a Turf War, or remove your opponent's Scheme markers? (And that's assuming that you don't accidentally come up against the Belles' hard counters.)

 

I look forward to seeing it in action and figuring out how it works.

 

I've had a lot of fun using the Belles to completely tie up an opponent's crew while Seamus uses Back Alley to dart around the board doing almost all the Scheme work. If I have the option to take Breakthrough and Entourage, it's almost too easy. 

Everyone seems to expect Seamus to pop out from nowhere into the middle of battle and drop a 4/6/8 or a bunch of Bag-o-Tools attacks into someone, but I've had a lot of success skirting him up the sides of the board to drop schemes and put pressure on my opponent.

 

A friend brought a Sonia Criid crew to the party that really shut me down, hard. Her counterspell aura cut off any lures, and she proceeded to blast everyone off the board. Only a timely RJ on Seamus' last action of the game brought it up to a 7-7 tie.

 

I've also made the mistake of luring in some melee monsters who then chew through a Belle or two.

 

I'm not saying Belles aren't anything less than fantastic (they really are!), but there are definitely some situations they just don't work for. 

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  I still want to see if anyone's played any games using them with a Lure Ca of 6 to see whether that completely cuddles them out of being a viable troop choice. I think it would, and then you're left with just a light damage causing average walker, which would most likely deserve a SS of 3 or 4.

 

  I would perform this test myself but as I'm quite a new player and haven't really got my synergies down I don't think I'm a good test subject. Even with a Ca of 8 my Belles have been near to damn useless in every game I've played.

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I still want to see if anyone's played any games using them with a Lure Ca of 6 to see whether that completely cuddles them out of being a viable troop choice. I think it would, and then you're left with just a light damage causing average walker, which would most likely deserve a SS of 3 or 4.

With Ca6 and 3SS they would be silly broken :)
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That's my point - if lure only works half the time then you basically have a slow set of Canine Remains in a dress. And even as a McMourning player, that doesn't bear thinking about.

 

I think what he's trying to say (and i agree) with Ca6 for 3SS they would be so extremely powerfull that they would then realy break the game

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I think what he's trying to say (and i agree) with Ca6 for 3SS they would be so extremely powerfull that they would then realy break the game

 

  Aye, maybe 3SS was hyperbole. But without a reliable Lure they really don't have 5 Soulstones worth of value.

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  Aye, maybe 3SS was hyperbole. But without a reliable Lure they really don't have 5 Soulstones worth of value.

Good thing you also get a Ca 5 slow. Also, Oiran would have a word with you.

 

I would still pay 5 SS a pop for them with Ca 6, only instead of ALWAYS putting one in my resser lists, I might actually think about it for more than 5 seconds.

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Ive been playing with Nicodem recently and ive found belles to be amazing. I now hire at least 2 every game and then i will occasionally summon more as needs demand. 

 

Its not just lure thats great, undress is extremely potent when used to contain threats that are problematic to remove. 

 

They move my own crew to better do schemes, move your crew to stop yours, pull models out of problematic auras, reasonably resilient significant models that are good for some schemes and more.

 

I would still take them at Ca6 Lure but maybe not quite so many.

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With Ca6 and 3SS they would be silly broken :)

 

If that would be all that changes they would be insanely broken. I believe in our last Vassal game with a friend I locked down Sonnia for basically 2 turns with one Belle. I think it's a well placed 5ss. As you can bring another one of them with Seamus when that one dies.

 

I really do understand the frustration of the ca8 Lure though, I have been playing a lot of Lynch now and with ca6 Lure I am still succeeding quite nicely, but it's a fair game on tough calls and by no means is it auto win. Ca8 is a bit on the harsh side. :D 

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I really do understand the frustration of the ca8 Lure though, I have been playing a lot of Lynch now and with ca6 Lure I am still succeeding quite nicely, but it's a fair game on tough calls and by no means is it auto win. Ca8 is a bit on the harsh side. :D

It's basically this, Ca 8 is overkill and "almost always going to go through" territory, specially with a thematic master that can put a -2 penalty. Ca 6 with both suits is pretty damn good already.

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It's basically this, Ca 8 is overkill and "almost always going to go through" territory, specially with a thematic master that can put a -2 penalty. Ca 6 with both suits is pretty damn good already.

Luckily there are multiple models across all the factions that can do some suit removal shenanigans. That and Laugh Off should, in theory, make things more tolerable, though I admit in a tournament setting that'd mean having to prepare a list to specifically counter this kind of issue which would be... obnoxious, I suppose.

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Luckily there are multiple models across all the factions that can do some suit removal shenanigans. That and Laugh Off should, in theory, make things more tolerable, though I admit in a tournament setting that'd mean having to prepare a list to specifically counter this kind of issue which would be... obnoxious, I suppose.

 

Well if your facing Rezers, it's likely they will have at least one Belle.

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Well if your facing Rezers, it's likely they will have at least one Belle.

 

And this is the problem. Factionwide auto-include models are a good sign that something doesn't work as it should be.

I wholeheartedly agree with those who say that if Lure would be at Ca6 most of the people would still take one or two sometimes or even most of the time. And this proves that the Belles are just too good for their points.

 

Disclaimer: the above things does NOT mean that I think they completely broke the game and must be altered quickly to make Malifaux as balanced as it could be. You can certainly mitigate the power of Belles with clever crew selection and in game tactics to a tolerable level. 

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