Rotten Belles - a happier redux

[The Godlyness]

Phase 2 nekima bleeds on belles then hits then in face and heals and paralyzes surrounding belles then hits another and pushes them away. Flexs wings and says do it again.

Also wp 7 can't ask for much better tbh so lures won't be going super off I would think.

[Kadeton]

You contest quarters very easily Kadeton. There is a very big donut hole in the middle of the board thats called you dont score squat for the strategy if your model is in that area. Also, models that have any part of their base on the line of a quater dont score either. You simply lure models that have activated for the turn into these none scoring spots. He starts the game with 9 models, not a very low model count is it? Eight of them are signifigant and he can summon one per turn to keep up with attrition.

 

As I have said in a previous post. I dont think its fair to say well I can write up a certain list that can counter his. You dont know who you are facing in a tournament. All they reveal is they are playing Resser. I am going to put together a good Resser counter list for the tournament this weekend and see what I can do. I am not putting together a Victor Seamus counter list. Everyone has options for the most part when facing a certain faction. I just contend that if you honestly compose a list just to face the Resser faction in general he will beat you with his list. If you wrack your brain to just put a list together to beat his specific list then yes I think you can win. You have to admit that its impressive that he keeps the same list and everyone knows what it is and he keeps winning. It doesnt matter which faction you announce he runs that list. 

 

We continue to strive to develop a good counter list for the Resser faction which will hopefully garner some wins against him soon. 

 

Yep, this is all very useful info - I think we're starting to get a better idea of what the list actually does. When these threads started, the suggestion was more along the lines of "He just hides all his stuff at the back of the board where I can't touch it and lures my models across and kills them," which is basically a guaranteed losing strategy. It now sounds more like he's a very careful, thoughtful player who spreads out across the board and uses positioning to maximum advantage (as well he might, given it's the only advantage he's got) in pursuit of the objectives. I'd venture that he would do extremely well with any given Master and crew, given that sort of attention to detail. It probably helps that he's extremely familiar with his chosen crew now, whereas everyone else in your area is still scrambling to come up with counters for it.

 

Your bit about luring people into dead zones doesn't ring quite true to me - that relies on your opponent placing his models exactly one or two Walk's distance from the dead zone (especially the lines between quarters, the centre is a bit easier). You know you can't just lure the model as far as you want, right - it has to move as close to the caster as it can. It also relies on the model having already activated - with 9 models on the table in a 50SS game, a lot of lists will be seriously out-activating you if they want to.

 

I don't think it's so much about writing a list to specifically counter this one, as it is that (in major tournaments, per your example) the Belle list will, just by accident, run into stuff that shuts it down hard, like Sonnia with Counterspell Aura or a lot of Arcanist lists. When building crews against Ressers in general, it's a good idea to think specifically about how you're going to deal with Belles, because their utility means they show up in almost every list (at least one or two). You know they're going to be there, so work out how you'll deal with them in advance. Oh, Belles are all your opponent brought? Pretty easy to deal with, then.

 

I suspect that a lot of our test games will go against the Belles, simply because we're not used to using them in the way that this list requires. Not only do you have to think about where your models need to be to achieve your schemes, you need to think about where your models need to be to stop your opponent's models from being where they want to be - that takes skill and practice. 

[TarlSS]

With TT you could build a weird Anti Belle list with all Laugh Off/Braced models.

 

• Any Leader
• Any Totem
• Fuhatsu
• Sidir
• Ototo
• Sensei Yu

A major problem of course is a lack of any minions.

 

Here's a list of models that are NOT Laugh off, but could be 'anti-belle' and are difficult to lure, or make it harder

 

• Huggy with Endless Hunger
• Yin
• Oiran
• Torakage + Smoke Bombs
• Dawn Serpent
• Yamaziko

Models that are good tactically against Belles

• Katanaka Snipers (Outrange Lure)
• Tannen (Don't want to be lured)

Another tactic is to close the distance quickly with strong melee models, TT has many 'push' effects that allow you to get a heavy like Izamu up close and personal. Imagine something nasty like

Graves pushes Izamu, that gets pushed by Soul Porter, that gets pushed by Sensei Yu.

 

To deal with clusters of Belles we have Yan Lo, Misaki, Mei Feng, Yamaziko, Fuhatsu, Sidir, all which loves jumping into a tightly clustered group of minions.

[PolishSausage]

 

To deal with clusters of Belles we have Yan Lo, Misaki, Mei Feng, Yamaziko, Fuhatsu, Sidir, all which loves jumping into a tightly clustered group of minions.

 

No player will forcefully cluster even to get double pounce knowing you will AOE his entire crew and keep it spread out.

There are ways to force pounces on different bells as your luring a model to the back line through a board filled with spread out hookers

[dgraz]

I don't play or face the Belle spam list so......

 

However, seems to me there are a lot of decent suggestions for dealing with it. What amuses me is that no matter what combo of Anti-Belle abilities/tactics is discussed, the Belle advocates just say that it isn't possible because the Belles will adjust tactics.......as if the person playing against the Belles can't adjust tactics as well.

[Csonti]

Solutions I can come up with vs Belles (most of these were mentioned here and there):

1. Terrain - play it like it is meant to be played, with lots of terrain that block LoS and/or hinder movement (if you put those 4 forests at the 4 table corners you are doing it wrong)

2. Positioning - if an unactivated model is Lured a few times it can most probably still activate and hide in a safe spot without losing momentum

 

3. Terrifying, Manipulative and similar abilities

 

4. Counterspell and abilities that hand out [-] flips on Attacks or deny suits to Ca-actions

 

5. Pieces with unmovable effects

 

6. Models that can be burried and/or appear anywhere on the board

 

7. Any buffs to Wp, extreme high Wp models, Stubborn

 

8. High damage profile melee models

 

9. Models that deal auto damage when they are at close (Black Blood, Shatter, detonating Pigs etc.)

 

10. Crews with numerous models. Lure's potential is mitigated when there are too many targets

 

11. Aggressive, melee oriented lists who rain down on the opponent as a whole

 

12. Attacks from very high range, maybe even without the need of LoS. A Pigapult can take out 1,5 Belles per turn easily

 

13. Anything that helps positioning, moving. You can fight fire with fire

 

14. LoS blocking effects (Ice Pillars, Lilith's forest etc.)

 

I'm sure every faction can get a decent crew that can utilize most of these points.

[dgraz]

Solutions I can come up with vs Belles (most of these were mentioned here and there):

[sNIP]

 

I'm sure every faction can get a decent crew that can utilize most of these points.

Yeah, but the Belles will just change tactics on you.

[Abbazabba1920]

For guild/TT's, Sidir is a pretty solid model to use against belles. With his upgrade that lets him move in base and then take the hit, coupled with his not being able to be lured, he can block LOS of a crucial model and waste the ap. His positioning will hopefully block future lures against that model.

[TarlSS]

No player will forcefully cluster even to get double pounce knowing you will AOE his entire crew and keep it spread out.

There are ways to force pounces on different bells as your luring a model to the back line through a board filled with spread out hookers

 

Well, of course, at that point we just have the option of shooting them with our Laugh Off Models while they're all spread out.

[Clement]

The other thing worth noting is that lots of the counters listed here (high min damage, disabling attacks, terrifying) aren't just good against belles. Generally ressers all have crappy defenses and h2w, its what we do. Things that tear up belles are going to make a mess of ressers in general.

[Cats Laughing]

No player will forcefully cluster even to get double pounce knowing you will AOE his entire crew and keep it spread out.

There are ways to force pounces on different bells as your luring a model to the back line through a board filled with spread out hookers

 

I really want to see a diagram of how a player pulls this off, because I like to see diagrams, and it can also help show some both sides of this argument what is actually happening.  

I see both sides giving lots of generalities.  I understand that this is done because someone will always complain that specific example only applies to that case.  However in this case we have a very specific list (Seamus, Copycat, Sybelle & 6 Belles), but only general descriptions of "turn 1 lured model xxx across board and kill it."  That description doesn't really provide much info and leads to responses that won't really provide much help.  In the above case (quoted post) mention is made of luring a model past multiple belles to get multiple pounces.  The description doesn't say how it's being done, but there's a big difference between 1 Belle activating and 4+ Belles activating over at least 2 chain activations.  

I think more pictures of how things happen should help both side to analyze what's going on.

[Fetid Strumpet]

The basics of the list look pretty straight forward. Use as many belles as possible to lure models into Seamus' melee range. If they haven't activated and they fail to get away from Seamus' disengaging strike they will take 2 dmg automatically because of unnerving aura. Decaying aura stops healing and using ss to prevent. If they attack Seamus he will heal off potential slow landing, less likely as the cast is only 5, or slowly from lures landing, depending on how models are positioned.

Seamus will attack models which have already activated, and use the bag to either kill strike enemy models, or drop scheme markers for alits or plant explosives, or similar.

CCK assists in killing things.

Any belles extraneous to controlling the opposing crew run off to do whatever they need to do.

Obviously there is some variance and skill in how you play , and this brief description assumes a perfect world, but to me that's what the basic strat looked like.

[PolishSausage]

that is the very basic strat of things. One thing that people forget about lure is I can walk a bell up and lure another of my friendly bells up now I have a fresh bell 6 inches up from deploment that has been re-position and can either lure 2x or walk and lure. I can also walk and do line in the sand/squaters or drop schemes for protect teritory

[Math Mathonwy]

Yeah, but the Belles will just change tactics on you.

This is just the sort of posting that lead to the closing of the previous thread. If you have no interest in discussing this, then please let the rest of us.

[dgraz]

This is just the sort of posting that lead to the closing of the previous thread. If you have no interest in discussing this, then please let the rest of us.

No it isn't. This is what the pro-Belle spam people are saying.

[Mako]

Actually, in a strange twist, the most common reason for threads getting closed these days seems to be people telling other people that they're breaking the rules. That is often the trigger for it to go downhill, so lets not go down that path please? 

 

If you think its insulting, offensive, or inappropriate, report it and let us deal with it. If you think it's pointless, don't respond to it. 

 

Otherwise, it becomes a bunch of people getting more and more outside the boundaries as they tell each other how far the others are outside the boundaries, and we shut the thread before we have to ban a bunch of people.

 

I do recommend careful elucidation of what you mean in posts though, as these kinds of threads can be particularly hard to read people's intentions in.

[rgarbonzo]

One counter from Gremlins would come in the form of Moon Shinobi led by Somer and his Skeeters using the (0) of Liquid Bravery. That would put the Shinobi at Wp 7 and it gives them auto plus damage flips against Belles. Another would be to deploy Bayou Bushwackers and use a Skeeter to (0) the Liquid Bravery to give them Wp 8 and put the Belles on negative flips targeting them while they are in terrain. 

[Clement]

Yeah, but the Belles will just change tactics on you.

To what? Thus far everything I've read on belle spam is focused entirely on luring models out of position and then potentially murdering them. I get that.

Now if lure is off the table, what else can this list pull? Belles are average speed (fast for ressers) and kind of pillow fisted in a straight fight. How would this list change stuff up and come up with a win?

[dgraz]

To what? Thus far everything I've read on belle spam is focused entirely on luring models out of position and then potentially murdering them. I get that.

 

I don't know. My statement goes back to my earlier post....that every time someone posts a tactic, the pro-Belle spam folks punch holes in it like nothing could possibly work. I personally agree with you.....I don't see how the Belle spam list can be 100% unbeatable. But again, I don't play it or face it....it's theory for me.

[PolishSausage]

I dont mean to sound rude but like you said unless you play it or face it its all theory. Its just one of those lists that seems stupid and east to counter until you see what angles it has on the board.

 

We are heading out to a tournament in Wisconsin tomorrow and I will run the 6 bells. Post some short reports when I get back

[dgraz]

I dont mean to sound rude

Why rude? It's what I said. Even if it was, as much snark as I'm capable of.....I'd be pretty sad indeed if I couldn't take some back.

 

Theory: Yeah, that's why I'm not making tactic suggestions....just commenting on the arguments that don't make sense to me.

 

I can't wait to see your reports.

[Math Mathonwy]

If you think its insulting, offensive, or inappropriate, report it and let us deal with it. If you think it's pointless, don't respond to it.

The problem for me is that you deal with it by closing the thread and that is explicitly not an outcome I want therefore reporting is about the last thing I would want to do. And this isn't in any way a criticism of how you moderate, just the logical consequence of my personal preferences and the moderating style here. I wish to stress that people who have different preferences (as there are several people who actively wish for thread closure in more controversial topics) act differently and that is entirely valid.

That said, I will refrain in the future from commenting other people's style.

[Ratty]

If you report we can give said person a quick nudge saying you are approaching being offensive. If you don't report it just spirals which causes threads to close.

[Mako]

Ratty is, as usual, spot on with that one.

[Math Mathonwy]

Ah, you send PMs? I hadn't realized. That's cool then.