Rotten Belles - a happier redux

[Mako]

Because it serves no purpose other than to send this thread down the same path as the last one. Saying 'they should be changed X way' is not productive as there is no errata coming in the foreseeable future. This isn't beta.

 

The OP even said he wanted to avoid that kind of thing, and keep it constructively useful.

 

Discuss experiences, tactics, and so on. That will show if it's a meta thing, or a global thing. 

[PolishSausage]

the only thing that is not a desirable as a lure target are models that explode like witchlings or papaloco. But even then you can lure em in the open just to get shot to pieeces by sybelle/seamus/copycat.

 

This problem or landing multiple punces is also mitigated by the fact these exploding models would hit multiple pouncing bells.

 

Again a good strat although not available to all the crews is to saturate the board with models you dont want to lure that are also relatively cheap. Some factions can do that better then others as well.

 

Can I hire 6 stuffed pigglets and send the horde changing after the bells? SURE! but also be aware that a savvy player will get the spare parts upgrades agains the gremlins and try to make some rogues to terify/ blast them.

[PolishSausage]

Another key issue that we have discussed here is people go after the belle spam list with " I am going to play x y z and counter you". That is a nice idea but do you expect to counter pick all your opponents 100% OF THE TIME? Just as many models there are that are able to negate in some degree the lure abuse you can always focus either other models on the table or re-position your crew much better with luring your own models into quick objective grabs or charge lanes.

 

And there are many more models/crews that are susceptible to lure abuse when you reposition their models where they cant benefit from the rest of their crew support then there are models that dont mind being pushed closer. Something to think about when crew building.

[mythicFOX]

It's a consideration when crew building.  There's no doubt Belles are a highly effective staple of Resser builds, so taking account of their existence when building for that match up is wise anyway IMHO.

 

It's been advanced by the proponents of Belle spam that it's very big in their local metas. Taking account of meta is important in crew construction and wider model choices. In H2 2013 it was important to have a good Lynch match at events, that's slackening off a bit now and I'm adjusting accordingly. Reading the meta runes has always been an important skill.

[Fetid Strumpet]

When I played lure bombs the best counter tactic I found was when the opponent just decided to run right at me, using terrain to mask los when possible, not to prevent the lures completely but to make the belle player spend more ap walking to get into Los to utilize them. Especially after the clarification of how pounce works massed belles just aren't good enough to control every thing rushing at you.

If you feel you might be facing potential belle spam bring killjoy, or Howard, or nekima, as massed belles drop very fast to min dmg 4.

If Seamus is the opposing master its almost always better to just control him rather than attempt to kill him. His poor df means he is very easy to actually hit, so keep him paralyzed, or slow, or other effects that work off hitting df.

There are some other tricks and strats ill post that have cost me games, when I have a little more time.

[PolishSausage]

well in regards to countering bells I prefer blasts over min dmg 4 as due to min dmg 4 being good agains everthing but a blast and pulses seem to be very effective against stacked bells.

 

Another important part about lure is it still has to pass manipulative and horror duels. With low wp of 4 that means u need to get or drop a 8-9 to pass them which makes luring a costly endeavor.

 

When I have to faced models with such defensive ability I tend to either ignore it all together or focus it down fast either turn 1-2 and make sure I can generate as much damage as possible. Walking/repositioning a belle up before luring so that in worst case scenario I dont lose both ap to terrifying

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

I support the rush them mentality. It's not perfect, but it eliminates the biggest power of lure which is being able to threaten while not being threatened.

[osoi]

In general when I am building against any Resser list I am always looking for higher Wp models and models I like to be up close and personal with. It does mitigate the impact of Belles on the game. I am going to try and run a couple of Belle spam lists though as it has been a while since I have run Seamus and I have 5 Belles so why not.

 

Facing a Molly Belle spam during the wave 2 beta I played a Last Blossom heavy 10T Misaki list a couple of times that mananged to put the brakes on a bit primarily through the use of a lot of smoke bombs, so I gave my crew additional points of cover and was able to perform surgical strikes with Misaki herself while Ototo didnt care at all. I'm not sure if there would be a more effective Outcast build where Misaki has access to some interesting Outcast minions.

[Somnicide]

Completely unrelated but I was really confused for a while in a list with Rogue Necromancy and the nurse the referring to the rogue necromancy as RN since that is a nurse (my mom was an RN).

[decker_cky]

I'm not sure the resser nurses are registered.

[entropolous]

Given the prescription drugs they have available to dish, I am going to go with them being NPs

[Kadeton]

In general when I am building against any Resser list I am always looking for higher Wp models and models I like to be up close and personal with. It does mitigate the impact of Belles on the game. I am going to try and run a couple of Belle spam lists though as it has been a while since I have run Seamus and I have 5 Belles so why not.

 

Facing a Molly Belle spam during the wave 2 beta I played a Last Blossom heavy 10T Misaki list a couple of times that mananged to put the brakes on a bit primarily through the use of a lot of smoke bombs, so I gave my crew additional points of cover and was able to perform surgical strikes with Misaki herself while Ototo didnt care at all. I'm not sure if there would be a more effective Outcast build where Misaki has access to some interesting Outcast minions.

 

I'll be happy to test the Belle spam list with you, on either side. I think it's worth noting that Molly's Belle spam is way, way less effective than it was when we played in closed beta.

 

I'm still not quite clear on what the Belle spam list actually does to win - the strength of the tactic seems to rely on pulling models across the board and killing them from relative safety, but how often do we hear the mantra that killing models doesn't win games? Being able to move the enemy around is cool and all, but how do you contest enemy quarters, defend a Turf War, or remove your opponent's Scheme markers? (And that's assuming that you don't accidentally come up against the Belles' hard counters.)

 

I look forward to seeing it in action and figuring out how it works.

[osoi]

I'll be happy to test the Belle spam list with you, on either side. I think it's worth noting that Molly's Belle spam is way, way less effective than it was when we played in closed beta.

 

I'm still not quite clear on what the Belle spam list actually does to win - the strength of the tactic seems to rely on pulling models across the board and killing them from relative safety, but how often do we hear the mantra that killing models doesn't win games? Being able to move the enemy around is cool and all, but how do you contest enemy quarters, defend a Turf War, or remove your opponent's Scheme markers? (And that's assuming that you don't accidentally come up against the Belles' hard counters.)

 

I look forward to seeing it in action and figuring out how it works.

 Ok we can play it both ways one with me playing and one with you and we'll do some reports

[dgraz]

Another important part about lure is it still has to pass manipulative and horror duels. With low wp of 4 that means u need to get or drop a 8-9 to pass them which makes luring a costly endeavor.

 

Not too many Terrifying [undead] out there.......and not many [All] either.

[Kadeton]

Not too many Terrifying [undead] out there.......and not many [All] either.

 

Sure, but that's the way with all these counters to Belles - they're not that common, but when they do come up, they tend to come in spades. Run up against another Seamus list (especially a Terror list) and you'll have to contend with bucketloads of Terrifying (All).

 

That's the major problem with "focused" (one-dimensional) lists: a lot of the time, they'll stomp people, but then you run into your counter and your whole tactic is null and void.

[Math Mathonwy]

I'm still not quite clear on what the Belle spam list actually does to win - the strength of the tactic seems to rely on pulling models across the board and killing them from relative safety, but how often do we hear the mantra that killing models doesn't win games? Being able to move the enemy around is cool and all, but how do you contest enemy quarters, defend a Turf War, or remove your opponent's Scheme markers? (And that's assuming that you don't accidentally come up against the Belles' hard counters.)

I'm guessing that the idea is simply to mess up your opponent's schemes and strategy with the Lures and then use the relatively fast and relatively durable Belles to do the schemes and strategy. But you do bring up a very good point, I think.

Have you Chicago-people noticed any particular strategy or a combination of schemes that makes the Bellespam cringe or has it been a kind of a one-stop solution?

[sharpobjects]

I agree that if more than half your crew was terrifying then that in and of itself would put a damper on a dozen lures per turn. He could still use lure but would have to be much more strategic about it, based on cards in his hand and or not worrying if a Belle here or there failed the check. If I have a Belle guarding a scheme marker for VP, or I just dropped a marker this turn and I have 1 AP left I am not worried as much about failing the check with that particular model. 

 

You contest quarters very easily Kadeton. There is a very big donut hole in the middle of the board thats called you dont score squat for the strategy if your model is in that area. Also, models that have any part of their base on the line of a quater dont score either. You simply lure models that have activated for the turn into these none scoring spots. He starts the game with 9 models, not a very low model count is it? Eight of them are signifigant and he can summon one per turn to keep up with attrition. 

 

As I have said in a previous post. I dont think its fair to say well I can write up a certain list that can counter his. You dont know who you are facing in a tournament. All they reveal is they are playing Resser. I am going to put together a good Resser counter list for the tournament this weekend and see what I can do. I am not putting together a Victor Seamus counter list. Everyone has options for the most part when facing a certain faction. I just contend that if you honestly compose a list just to face the Resser faction in general he will beat you with his list. If you wrack your brain to just put a list together to beat his specific list then yes I think you can win. You have to admit that its impressive that he keeps the same list and everyone knows what it is and he keeps winning. It doesnt matter which faction you announce he runs that list. 

 

As far as really fast killing lists, in your face types against his. I dont think you can come up with a better example than a Lilith grow list he beat a few weeks ago for the tournament win. John grew 2 tots to youngs, one young to a Mature and had Nekima. The strategy was squatters. With all the fast moving killing power at his disposal John lost 10-7. As Fetid pointed out Nekima and a Mature damage output can quickly eat up the Belles. Yea they did and he made more and just out pointed his opponent and won the game. 

 

I am not sure why many people look down on Belle's as objective grabbers. They have a 5 inch walk, 6 inches if near Sybelle, 8 wounds and H2W which equalizes their df 4 by putting models most of the time in negative twist for damage. They also can counter other models ability to objective grab with their lure and slow spell. On top of that Seamus can make 2-3 more per game. Dont forget Madame Sybelle is also in the list which is an outstanding henchmen as well as that nasty totem which is truly one of the most dangerous totems in the game. I have watched that model kill or damage more models than Seamus over the course of a game.  When you put all of this together its a list we are having a tough time countering when you take his faction into consideration and not the actual list he is running. 

 

We continue to strive to develop a good counter list for the Resser faction which will hopefully garner some wins against him soon. 

[Math Mathonwy]

Let me just say that I really like your in-depth posts, Sharpobjects!

[mythicFOX]

Good post SharpObjects.  One point;

 

 

As I have said in a previous post. I dont think its fair to say well I can write up a certain list that can counter his. You dont know who you are facing in a tournament.

 

....

 

 You have to admit that its impressive that he keeps the same list and everyone knows what it is and he keeps winning. It doesnt matter which faction you announce he runs that list. 

 

Well if you rock up at the table opposite that guy that always plays that one list, then you probably can fairly safely just chose to build a list to beat the one list he always plays. Surely that's meta-game knowledge and adaptation?

[Ratty]

Good post SharpObjects.  One point;

 

 

Well if you rock up at the table opposite that guy that always plays that one list, then you probably can fairly safely just chose to build a list to beat the one list he always plays. Surely that's meta-game knowledge and adaptation?

 

I agree that is the nature of Meta, you see it in all kinds of Games.. If you play League of Legends if a hero becomes really popular, his counter will become really popular the week after and then a couple of weeks after the original hero popularity drops as he is not doing as well any more.

 

If someone always takes Belles, and you don't take counters, the meta never shifts.

[sharpobjects]

Good post SharpObjects.  One point;

 

 

Well if you rock up at the table opposite that guy that always plays that one list, then you probably can fairly safely just chose to build a list to beat the one list he always plays. Surely that's meta-game knowledge and adaptation?

 

 

I am referring to national tournaments. Not local. Of course at the local level we know that if he announces Ressers that's what he is going to play. I still contend that even with that knowledge I would rather beat him with a list that I field against the Resser faction in general because at the national level I will have no idea what exact list someone is going to run unless they come on this forum and say so. 

 

As an example; I am going to run Lady J with a crew that is going to give me an edge against the Resser faction in general. If I can beat him I can feel reasonably confident that when facing a Resser crew in general I will have a chance to win those games as well. I could try and come up with a list that gives me an edge specifically against him but I just don't think that's fair even if it's certainly legal. The reason I don't think its fair is because the local group has information regarding what he runs that the masses would not. I guess I prefer the honor in beating him with a general list against Ressers rather than a list specificaly designed to beat his specific list because I happen to know every single model and upgrade he is using. Oh and just to continue in the interest of fairness I already told him the Lady J list I am going to run against him so he wont have an excuse to fall back on if I win

 

Even with discussing it on the forum and providing this information to a large amount of people across the globe you do understand that a very small percentage of all the Malifaux players in the world actually read this forum. I played Malifaux for 2 years before I decided to register and actively read this forum. 

[The Godlyness]

My dreamer list does everything. Oh and is terror all cept nekima. Start the game with 5 models end turn 1 with 8 end turn 3 with 10-11 and they eat things. Daydreams and webmarkers being at 1 wp is going to be great. And most off all flying teddy. Cause he downed all the red bull. Don't tell anyone but this is my list for round 2 of the masters. Please please let me face spam. Lure bots away.

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

Phase One, Lure Nekima five times. Phase two.... Phase three profit.

[Csonti]

Phase One, Lure Nekima five times. Phase two.... Phase three profit.

 

I know the joke but in this case I would like to learn more about that phase two.

 

BTW this theoryfaux kung-fu is nice and all but why don't you try to prove it on the board? Vassal is not that hard to master. Even I could learn it.

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

you aren't ready for phase two! ;D