Rotten Bells, Lure is too Much

[The Godlyness]

So i Challenge you all to come to adepticon Bring ALL the Belles and i will glady walk away with the win.

 

if its so good play it in the Tournament. i will be playing never born. i might dust off my zoriada to obey your belle into luring my stuff closer or your own stuff yeah.

 

PLease Please Please bring belle spam. i want wins.

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

Challenge accepted.

[Somnicide]

Adepticon does seem a good testing ground, especially being so near to Chicago I would expect many people from the affected meta to attend. I can't wait to hear about the games from there! 

[Justin]

Saying Belles is breaking the game is silly. But ignoring the concerns is just as silly.

 

You can't make the argument that you do or don't see Belles as a claim to whether or not they are too powerful. My store never saw a Dreamer bomb in 1.5, but that doesn't mean it was OK. I played Hamelin in 1.5 and never got complaints, but that doesn't mean he was fine. This is because the players have a lot to do with the perception of the models they play, and ultimately choose the models they play. The presence or lack of Belles does not speak to their balance.

 

Also, comparing what Belles were in 1.5 to what they are in M2E is a non-starter. It is a new edition. Let's not pretend that Ca 8 now is the same as Ca 8 then. It's not. Soulstones are different, for one, which means that anything without a Wp 9 can legitimately have no chance to resist a Belle. Various overall game changes means that comparisons are invalid and useless. Let's not pretend that something being OK in a different game means it's OK in this one.

 

Ca 8 is amazingly good. That is essentially impossible to refute. The question is whether it is too much. I would argue that the lack of stats of 8+ in the game goes to show how dangerous 8+ stats are. 7s are pretty rare. 6 is good. 5 is average. To be 3 steps above the average in Malifaux is a BIG DEAL. I don't care how a Belle lines up to an Austringer or an Illuminated. That is beyond the scope of the conversation. The conversation is about Belles, so let's stick to it.

 

I think these are all good things to keep in mind when discussing a model's power level. They would keep the conversation relatively on point.

 

That said:

 

Belles will not be receiving an errata any time in the foreseeable future. (Note that I add "foreseeable future" not because I plan on giving them an errata, but because I acknowledge that things could possibly change with time and experience, as I would with ANY model).

 

Enjoy the discussion.

[kross1]

I play in a very competitive meta, & regularly face things like 5 flesh construct Mcmourning lists or 3 Teddy Dreamer lists, & quite frankly a 6 Belle list from any master doesn't scare me at all. Adapt and over overcome.

I can see losing to it a couple of times before figuring out how to counter it, but if you can't figure out how to mitigate it or use it that's your problem, not the models.

[Ausplosions]

But Belles ONLY DO THAT ONE THING.

They do nothing else. They Lure and pounce.

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

Except walk and take objectives, be hard to kill, and let's not forget that being cast 6 doesn't stop them from doing what they do now!

[tadaka]

I will take a model that does one thing well over a model that does a lot of stuff half assed any day of the week.

[Drool_bucket]

I wonder if the problem isn't really Belles and there high Ca action, but the concept of spamming anything good in any game? I used to play a sci-fi army scale game and left it because at competitive play you would see the same things picked over and over again.

I have always felt like a game wide cap of "all models are Rare 4" would go a long way in addressing a few of the balance issues in the game... And then give models like Bayou Gremlins and Malifaux Rats an ability that negates that.

We see no issues with Belle Spam in New England because no one plays that, but I am getting tired of Spider Spam because it's around.

[DeleteAccount]

They are also pretty damn good at putting slow on enemy targets.

 

But yeah, a global rare 3 on everything would cut spam lists on their core except on certain elements (mostly hamelin rats and maybe bayou gremlins come to mind).

[Ausplosions]

A cap of 3 on everything is a ridiculously ham fisted and restrictive rule to put in. It is an unnecessary restriction that does nothing to solve any issue.

Are people taking more than 3 Belles regularly? Is 3 the magic number where it's "okay" to take them?

Because if a model is only considered an issue when you take more than 3, it isnt actually an issue at all really?

[osoi]

Quite honestly I am never running more than 2, theres no justification in taking more. You lose out on too much in monotasking

[Cats Laughing]

You can easily set up a pounce chain where one belle lures you past multiple belles that are all taking pounce strikes as you go by.

Please explain more, because this sounds like pounce is being played very very wrong.

 

I'm asking for clarity on the situation, because clear examples are better for providing reasons to make changes.

Your current wording is making it sound almost like you're playing pounce as if it were a Warmachine free strike.

 

 

 

you would be surprised how far you walk in severe terrain tbh (not very much)

 

My last game using belles had the very fun example of 4 successful lures (over 2 turns) on Nino resulting in a mere 6" of movement thanks to an intervening streambed.  Thought that was a bit of an extreme example due to Nino's slow wk and the perfect placement of the streambed.

[Ratty]

Quite honestly I am never running more than 2, theres no justification in taking more. You lose out on too much in monotasking

 

 

agreed they are like Nurses. Ones is a good core for most list, 2 situational, 3 maybe if I'm playing Seamus because it is fluffy. Your just much better going for models that can make use of the lures like flurrying Punk Zombies or Convict Gunslingers. Also there are lists which you really don't want to be luring towards your crew.

[Dumb Luck]

You need to know when to Lure. I forget the number of times someone has Lured a trashy model a bit forwards, letting me then move a bit more to stick down an objective or Luring a beatstick into position for me.

 

It's like Tina's ice pillars. More often then not, people get trigger happy and throw them down because they have them, rather than thinking before hand.

[Ratty]

I tend to find after some initial pulling of enemy models to get of a few early shots, that I'm Luring my own models more often than the enemy. Getting things out of combat so they can charge better targets or go after objectives.. or so Seamus can shoot.

[rancor709]

I wonder if the problem isn't really Belles and there high Ca action, but the concept of spamming anything good in any game? I used to play a sci-fi army scale game and left it because at competitive play you would see the same things picked over and over again.

I have always felt like a game wide cap of "all models are Rare 4" would go a long way in addressing a few of the balance issues in the game... And then give models like Bayou Gremlins and Malifaux Rats an ability that negates that.

We see no issues with Belle Spam in New England because no one plays that, but I am getting tired of Spider Spam because it's around.

100% agree there should be a universal rarity cap it solves a lot of problems that only exist when people do silly things.

[PolishSausage]

Correct, the true power of the bell spam is the ability to survive/ put you out of position and slow you or tie you up. They are still combat 5 so disengagement strikes are less then 50%  of chance on a 5 to 5 with bells winning on ties. So lets say I lured your model to the side with my bell and it was a 4-6 stone model, that model needs to either waste ap to TRY to leave my melee or hit me with minimal dmg output due to hard to wound and 8 wounds.

 

In the meantime I am luring your other models into this single bell and slowing them down and that is JUST a single bell.

 

a single model can and in most cases WILL disable 5-15 stones per game guaranteed x6 and your opponent is starting to cry

[rgarbonzo]

Belles work great with Moon Shinobi! Please Lure them closer!!! Saves me AP to kill the Belle.  Spamming Belles can be dealt with rather easily by all the factions. They are not particularly tanky even with 8 wounds. Anything with a Df higher than the Ml of 5 will cause the opponent to either miss or cheat in good cards to make sure the hit goes through. If you are using your cards to hit with a Belle that's fine by me. I'll use my cards to eliminate the threat or go about my merry way with other models. Gremlins in particular have a very nasty counter to the Belle spam, and no this one doesn't even involve the Pigapult though there is one with that includes the Pult as well. 

[Tiny]

Oh it looks like its this months lure is too strong thread. 

 

Firstly, from the sounds of it, it seems like you dont have nearly enough terrain on your boards. 50% coverage is about where you want to aim. Do you have a photo from your games that we can see the terrain?

 

Secondly, you're hiring models with lure to just move your models back in position? Not sure how that is in anyway a solid tactic. You're just taking however many soulstones away from your crew doing what it wants. Which crews are you using that are struggling so much with these lure lists?

 

Thirdly, some of these arguments for example saying that lure makes people walk onto shafted markers so its strong. Who would walk onto a shafted marker if they weren't moved there? The only way that ability works is through lure. 

 

Alright onto the meat of it, from the sounds of it (as I havent seen a battle report) you're doing what I try to force my opponents into doing when I play against them with my McM list (that takes 2 belles) and that is after i lure 1 model across the board to my deployment zone you hold back allowing me to next turn pick off another model and have the majority of my crew vs 1 model at a time so it will obviously seem more powerful. Instead of just coming after me and fighting on equal terms.

 

You need to go after the weakness of belles, their terrible df and wp stats. If they are clumped up then use pulses that target these things (pulse are prefered as hard to wound makes blasts unpredictable unless you focus), so things like ramos detonating constructs, ice gamin exploding when they die, pere ravage, papa loco. 

 

Killjoy works fantastically well against belles as they need 9's to target him, if they do lure him in and hit him they take black blood, he heals an amazing amount of damage. His weak dmg is 4 so you can 2 hit a belle reliably not to mention he has a free swing on a mask. so if he's standing 2 belles next to each other for maximum pounce and u have 2 decent masks you can kill 2 belles in once activation and heal 3 times from it. And best of all if the belles are pouncing him out of activation and fail the terror check they get paralysed.

 

Why do you not take melee heavy crews if you know you're playing against ressers and it seems like this meta has a hard on for belles. So just take durable heavy hitters which are generally balanced by being slow and have him do the walking for you so you can spend all their ap on beating up belles and other things. 

 

Also you have masters that just cannot be lured, ramos with the upgrade and sonnia with her upgrade of counterspell aura. You have upgrades in arcanists (warding runes) that do the same thing. 

 

What crews do you guys use that you're struggling with against this?

 

Im finding hard to believe that crews that are spending 30ss on one trick in a presumably 50ss game is being as dominant as it is. Ca 8 is high no question but its not the reason he's winning everything. Better use of cover and activation orders can just stop the lures dead. 

[ehren37]

But Belles ONLY DO THAT ONE THING.

They do nothing else. They Lure and pounce.

 

And slow, and be reasonably tough to take out. Most models in that price range only do one thing well.

[Asyouwish78]

Ive never thought Lure was OP . Its annoying but thats about it. I typically play Perdita/ Guild and i never have problems defending against lure.  

[Tiny]

And slow, and be reasonably tough to take out. Most models in that price range only do one thing well.

 

like what? nurses who do tons of things? witchling stalkers who remove conditions spread burning and have ml 6 with 2/3/5 dmg.

 

Necropunks with an amazing leap great self healing htw htk.

 

hoarcat prides with devour, neg to shoot and 3/4/5 dmg when above 3 wds, manipulative and self healing.

 

Sorrows with amazing movement, damage for failing wp duels, and handing out paralyse.

 

Freikorpsmann who have armour immunity to blasts and pulses, can trigger crit on both gun and melee or boost their df to 7.

 

Hogwhispers 7 wd model that hands out reactivate to pigs movement to pigs and a ton of scheme marker placement.

 

Slop haulers who as mentioned earlier average 8 wds healed per activation, have bayou two card and reckless and can hand out a low df of 4.

 

Oiran who also have lure, passively buff wp around them and have a pseudo flurry with assassin's gift.

 

Rail works who have armour hard to kill a df trigger for more armour, hand out burning and can get positives to both attack and dmg on a 2/4/5 spread.

 

Thats literally every 5ss minion model of wave 1 and all of them do more than one thing well, but lets not let the facts get in the way of a good old whinge.

 

edit: formatting

[Ratty]

I was about to point out Ashigaru, awesome 5pt models. Decent damage arc, good defense Armour + Hard to Kill. But then you get the the amazing bit. They can more or less stop important parts of your crew getting charged, and on top of that they get a (1) charge ability. So they can either Charge a model as far out as 10" (5" Walk + 3" Charge + 2" reach), or even more amazing if they are near an ancestor Charge, hit once, hit twice auto trigger a push of the enemy away, Charge, hit a third time, hit a 4th time... That's 4 attacks from a 5ss model, a 10" threat range, and the ability to stop counter charges.

 

 

Oiran who also have lure, passively buff wp around them and have a pseudo flurry with assassin's gift.

 

Not to mention if in their core crew (with the upgrade on Yamaziko or Ototo) can put down Smoke walls or Teleport.

[sharpobjects]

This thread has gotten off topic from the main point of the OP. This has become well there are other 5SS models that are also very good and can do xyz blah blah. The point is the Belle has a CA of 8. It lands lures from what we have seen since Closed Beta of last spring 2013 about 95% of the time. I will repeat we are referring to its stat line of 8. Many feel its a bit too high for a 5SS model when going against the average wp of 5 in the game. I don't care if you hire 2 Belles or 6 Belles in your list, the stat line of 8 is extremely high and very reliable. Luring doesn't just push models towards belles for pounce. They greatly affect the Strategy of Turf War, Squatters Right and Recon along with a host of schemes they can prevent you from scoring by moving your models during key points in the game.

 

This has been explained many times through out this thread but I guess people jump in without reading every one of the 70+ posts. I can understand that its a lot to read through and you think you know what the main point of contention is. The stat line of 8 is too high for a 5SS model. If you don't agree that's fine. No one is here to change your mind. This thread was started because a very large community of players were starting to get fed up with the power of Lure and they wanted to voice their grievance here. It was mainly to let the powers at be know. Wyrd cant read peoples minds. If you don't tell them you think there is a problem how else would they know. Justin posted on it and that's fine. The discussion can be placed on the back burner while we continue to play the game and see if the feelings of an issue remain and time goes by.

 

Like some have posted here already, many people don't even play ressers or use belle's often in their local community so to them there is no issue. I understand that there are a lot of opinions one way or another. Again one last time, CA 8 is a bit too high for a 5SS models that can reach out 18 inches with the spell.

 

Thanks to most of the people that responded to this thread on topic.

 

Breath in, Breath out.