Rotten Bells, Lure is too Much

[tadaka]

I think the idea that ressers only get such a good lure is due to lacking range attack is flawed. Simple fact there is some very sexy merc range attack options available to them makes that a non point imho. If you think its potent hire mercs and bring the hand cannon. Problem lacking range is solved. Ya they pay an extra 2 stones but its a valid tactic and even with limited range they are brutal as hell. If there cast is not broken lets let the very sub par orian have the same cast with suits. There is no way in hell wyrd is going to give it to the 10t orian why let it fly on the better model in ressers. The hookers would still be more durable and have the hit on trigger.

[Somnicide]

I think the idea that ressers only get such a good lure is due to lacking range attack is flawed. Simple fact there is some very sexy merc range attack options available to them makes that a non point imho. If you think its potent hire mercs and bring the hand cannon. Problem lacking range is solved. Ya they pay an extra 2 stones but its a valid tactic and even with limited range they are brutal as hell. If there cast is not broken lets let the very sub par orian have the same cast with suits. There is no way in hell wyrd is going to give it to the 10t orian why let it fly on the better model in ressers. The hookers would still be more durable and have the hit on trigger.

 

But if you do that, then you aren't taking the belle spam right? Not defending it, I don't have enough experience either way, I am just working on understanding the issues.

[David Blank]

Honestly Belles are great and hard to stop.  However that is there symmetry.  They have Lure, look at the other models with lure and lure at 6. They have ranged attacks, special abilities, (Beckoners) They can actually hit in combat (Orian). Lure is the Belle's thing. They are a focal point for ressurs.  and Why should I have to take Mercs to get effectiveness in my lists.  No one else does because everyone else has shooting and a lot of it. 10T have snipers, Guild Riflemen, Nino, Arcanists December Acolytes, plus most masters. Gremlins have Pigapult and others, Outcasts have Hans, and most of there models shoot.  So resurrs have belles, they lure and pounce is no true threat. My opponents have learned to place models near walls or terrain to make sure that I do not overpower his models.

 

This is just my 10 cents

[monkeyking68]

I know that I'm late to the party, but I'd like to play devil's advocate.

 

There exists several hard counters to Lure, blocking off LOS being the easiest to achieve and available to every crew (depending on the agreed amount of terrain).  

 

Another one that comes to mind is Sonnia's counterspell aura.  Ca 8 is worthless without both suits.  I have been on both ends of this, and its just not fun.  Taking models with Stubborn, or old-fashioned Immunity, also gives the Belles a hard game.

 

When your opponent declares Resurrectionists, the first thing anybody should consider is that Belles are an option.  Your allowed to bring countermeasures.

[The Godlyness]

without the Belles your only options are walk into the open and die, or avoid the area of the board... The decent Lure or Fog like abilities really do matter in Rezers.

 

Hire mercenarys lol. solves all problems. shoot it with a merc, lure it with a merc, punch it with a merc,

 

Mercenarys are way to powerful cuddle THEM ALL!!!

 

Give AMisaki Ca 8 watch the world cry foul.

 

limiting it to 2 times a model per turn might help but that is alot of words to put on a card. that way one model doesn't traverse the board per say.

[DeleteAccount]

Except for Oirain, Rotten belle's also happen to be cheaper to all other lure users while being better, and frankly, Oiran are pretty crummy choices because of how unreliable their lure is, their ml potential is cute, I guess, but that's about the best you can say about them, and when you can field a 10 thunder brother at the same cost, it becomes very hard to justify more than 1 oiran and mostly for the 1 WP aura.

[Ratty]

The other question is how much terrain are you playing on where Belles are all powerful?

[tadaka]

I am not saying its a good plan I am saying that the argument they lack ranged is false. The whole point of taking a merc is to hire an option out side of the norm. I am saying if they want range they can have it. Just like every one else. People dicount mercs in this game. They can prove to be very useful.

[The Godlyness]

Planet CueBall psh who needs terrain.

 

you would be surprised how far you walk in severe terrain tbh (not very much)

[Ratty]

Not to mention all those crew where all you are doing is moving Lilith or Lady J closer to you.

[tadaka]

The other question is how much terrain are you playing on where Belles are all powerful?

No one ever said they are all powerful. The issue is the first model that sticks its head out gets chain lure to a death trap. They are low cost, spamable, and can even hit crap for free when they get there. Honestly I cant imagine any one thinking they are any thing less then one of the best 5ss model in the game. The only real question is do they go over the line and simply play 2 good. I would put money on it you would see them with a LOT of play even if they all cost 1 higher because they are that good.

 

This issue has come up more then once for a reason.

[Ratty]

Lets see, there aren't an awful lot of 5ss models in wave 1 but....

 

Nurse, far better in quite a few builds than Belles

Slop Hauler, fricking amazing, on average healing 8Wds an activation

 

and people have already said they feel the Austringer and the Illuminated are just as good if not better choices.

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

Right, I'm not saying that Bells are the most overpowered thing in for ever! I'm saying that Bells are breaking the game by having a spamable ability that never fails.

[Ratty]

But by that logic every model that compares to them in power must also be breaking the game, and I haven't seen 2 Austringers in every Guild list or tonnes of Illuminated in every Neverborn list, and to be honest I watch dozens of games a week on Vassal and I haven't seen Belles being spammed either. I've played Rezers for years and Belles have always had a Ca 8 on lure, and it didn't break 1.5 even though the average WP was also 5.  SO...  it must have something to do with your local meta. IE the majority of players must not know how to counter them or must be playing lists that are week against them. If your spamming Belles your damage output is going to be poor. Any crew that moves fast and is good in melee should be able to plow into your force take out the damage dealing models, and then the crew is doing very little.

[Dracomax]

Just to make a general point: 8 is considered high for a master. The Statrocks were modified to keep them from ever giving a master a 9 in a stat.

 

at 5SS, an attack at 8 is really quite high—Most masters don't get that. I'm not saying it should be changed, just pointing out that a 5SS model has a better chance to hit with an attack than an unmodified Lady Justice...

[Lucidicide]

Saying Belles is breaking the game is silly. But ignoring the concerns is just as silly.

 

You can't make the argument that you do or don't see Belles as a claim to whether or not they are too powerful. My store never saw a Dreamer bomb in 1.5, but that doesn't mean it was OK. I played Hamelin in 1.5 and never got complaints, but that doesn't mean he was fine. This is because the players have a lot to do with the perception of the models they play, and ultimately choose the models they play. The presence or lack of Belles does not speak to their balance.

 

Also, comparing what Belles were in 1.5 to what they are in M2E is a non-starter. It is a new edition. Let's not pretend that Ca 8 now is the same as Ca 8 then. It's not. Soulstones are different, for one, which means that anything without a Wp 9 can legitimately have no chance to resist a Belle. Various overall game changes means that comparisons are invalid and useless. Let's not pretend that something being OK in a different game means it's OK in this one.

 

Ca 8 is amazingly good. That is essentially impossible to refute. The question is whether it is too much. I would argue that the lack of stats of 8+ in the game goes to show how dangerous 8+ stats are. 7s are pretty rare. 6 is good. 5 is average. To be 3 steps above the average in Malifaux is a BIG DEAL. I don't care how a Belle lines up to an Austringer or an Illuminated. That is beyond the scope of the conversation. The conversation is about Belles, so let's stick to it.

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

I don't see how you make that claim, austringers you can only have 2! Illuminated don't have a 8 in any attack action stat! They are not comparable. The issue with bells is that they have an ability that is almost a guarantee to work and they can spam it. Maybe your  meta just hasn't caught on to that yet.

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

Saying Belles is breaking the game is silly. But ignoring the concerns is just as silly.

 

You can't make the argument that you do or don't see Belles as a claim to whether or not they are too powerful. My store never saw a Dreamer bomb in 1.5, but that doesn't mean it was OK. I played Hamelin in 1.5 and never got complaints, but that doesn't mean he was fine. This is because the players have a lot to do with the perception of the models they play, and ultimately choose the models they play. The presence or lack of Belles does not speak to their balance.

 

Also, comparing what Belles were in 1.5 to what they are in M2E is a non-starter. It is a new edition. Let's not pretend that Ca 8 now is the same as Ca 8 then. It's not. Soulstones are different, for one, which means that anything without a Wp 9 can legitimately have no chance to resist a Belle. Various overall game changes means that comparisons are invalid and useless. Let's not pretend that something being OK in a different game means it's OK in this one.

 

Ca 8 is amazingly good. That is essentially impossible to refute. The question is whether it is too much. I would argue that the lack of stats of 8+ in the game goes to show how dangerous 8+ stats are. 7s are pretty rare. 6 is good. 5 is average. To be 3 steps above the average in Malifaux is a BIG DEAL. I don't care how a Belle lines up to an Austringer or an Illuminated. That is beyond the scope of the conversation. The conversation is about Belles, so let's stick to it.

 

This! My point exactly but you said it better.

[sharpobjects]

Lets see, there aren't an awful lot of 5ss models in wave 1 but....

 

Nurse, far better in quite a few builds than Belles

Slop Hauler, fricking amazing, on average healing 8Wds an activation

 

and people have already said they feel the Austringer and the Illuminated are just as good if not better choices.

 

 

 

Belle's can stop your opponent from scoring VP for Turf War, Recon, and Squatters Rights very easily with Lure. They dont need to be anywhere near you to do it either. You activate your model and then I move it. The Nurse is great I agree but its not going to directly prevent your oppoent from being near squatter markers, The Turf War center and remaining in quadrants on the board that I dont want you to be in. I also agree that the slop hauler is outstanding. 

 

I am not sure if you are skimming this thread or not reading everything entirely. I already stated that bringing up any other model that is very good our even outstanding for its cost is not a a valid arguement for the Belle to remain at 8 CA. If the Belle is reduced to 6 CA it still can do the things I mentioned above but it wont succeed at the rate it does at 8 CA. 

 

I can also use Belle to move models away from your protect territory, out flank etc. This is on top of moving models against your will into an easy kill zone. I also love when opponents with Wp 5 flip double digit cards and still cant defeat the duel when I flip a 7-9. You can easily set up a pounce chain where one belle lures you past multiple belles that are all taking punce strikes as you go by. Then end near a scheme marker in a shafted aura or face to face with a RN. 

 

I posted a link above that shows some the tables set up at my events. Normally tables have 20-24 pieces of terrain of various sizes. More than enough to try and hide behind but you have to come out from behind terrain at some point and not every angle can be blocked where 5-6 belles cant see a part of your base at some point even if your behind a rock or wall. 

 

Counter spell was brought up. Not a great example to thwart belle since I think two Masters have access to it, Sonia and Ramos as well as Hannah the Henchmen. If there is more that are not coming to mind it sure isnt 10 more masters. Stubborn helps but focus can thwart that if the Lure really needs to go off. I got a game in against Sonia Crid on Tuesday using Molly, 4 Belles and 2 RN. It was a 9-6 victory for me. I lured everything up except anything near Sonia, big deal. By turn 3 she wasnt blasting anymore after I dropped 3 drowned in melee with her and kept the summoning pressure on her for the rest of the game. The crew did manage to take down the two RN's but I summoned a 3rd in on turn 4 anyway. I agree that Sonia is a hard matchup but even then I over came the burning, blasting and counter spell. I digress sorry. 

 

To sum up, 

 

No 5SS or low cost model should have an 8 for an attack stat. Even at 6 CA it would be very good for the Belle at 18 inch range, suits built in and a TN of only 12. The model has no rareity and can be summoned by several resser masters to replinsh the ones that died. Even with a df of 4 they are very resilent at 8 wds and HtW. They have an above average walk of 5 which which increases to a blazing 6 if you hire Sybelle who is very good for 8SS. Sybelle can also increase the walk of the lured target with an upgrade. My community feels the 8 CA is too high and when the model is spammed it creates a NPE. There are many people in other communities from the looks of posts in this thread that feel the same or near the same. 

 

These issues were brough up in Beta so this is nothing new. There were also battle reports that I posted back then that had lists of spammed Belles that won their games. 

[sharpobjects]

Oh and one other thing to Ratty and his post about our local meta not being able to counter the Seamus and in some fasion the Molly Belle spam. Our community plays everything. We own all of the masters and subsequent crew when you factor us all in as a group. We allow anyone to play whatever they want and we have it all at our disposal. The Belle spam goes up against all factions and masters. The most recent tournament that I posted the link in a previous post pitted Victor playing the Seamus Belle spam against John's Lilith grow list with Nekima. I recal John growing one tot to a young and another Young to a Mature and he lost 10-7. I dont recall the strategy and schemes they played on round 3 but I can look up the paperwork when I get home if you feel you need to know that info to justify the Lilith Lose.

 

I am not saying that one game or one tournament is the be all end all. We have been running this Belle spam for months and I cant recall when it has lost. Yes many of the games are close. No one is 10-0 anyone. The fact still remains that people in the Chicagoland area are getting tired of seeing Belle spam lists. That is one of the main reasons for this thread.  

[Dracomax]

 

I am not saying that one game or one tournament is the be all end all. We have been running this Belle spam for months and I cant recall when it has lost. Yes many of the games are close. No one is 10-0 anyone. The fact still remains that people in the Chicagoland area are getting tired of seeing Belle spam lists. That is one of the main reasons for this thread.  

Unfortunately, part of the problem could be your meta. Sometimes one tactic can become overwhelming in a meta, but when brought to a different meta gets shut down routinely. A single city, given consistent results, is probably cause to talk about it, but if it isn't being seen in multiple areas, it probably won't be changed. there were several large metas which never had problems with Dreamer, and the "Filth List" didn't even exist until over a year after all models in it came out.

 

It's going to take a few major tournaments being won by belle spam, most likely, before it can be proven to the devs that an errata is needed. Doesn't mean we shouldn't present our cases when we feel something is overpowered; it's one of the better ways to get multiple metas to test it, for one thing. It just means that any change will likely be at least 6 months or a year down the road. Keep posting and keeping track of batreps, though. More evidence means more chance of things moving.

[AgrilusHunter]

Hi All,

 

This is my first post in the Forums so I'm probably picking the wrong thread to start out with, regardless, here goes.

 

I've found Leveticus w/ Rusty Alyce, a full SS pool, and some extra Abominations very effective against Belles. Anomaly (a2) on Abominations is excellent at shutting down any up field Belle's ability to lure your models (blocks all suits on Ca actions). Like MonkeyKing says, Ca8 is nothing without the suits. For example, using Abominations as cover forces a Belle to lure them first, getting them that much closer to walking in and having Anomaly shut down the Belle's luring. Once you get a Belle locked up with an Abomination just shoot into Ml with Leveticus or Alyce. Either you kill the Belle and solve your problem or you kill the Abomination and leave a scrap marker behind to get raised into a new Abomination. Leveticus, in particular, is built to fire into these types of Ml battles as Unmaking either hits your opponent or hits your Abomination and triggers a Ml action against the Belle. Win! Win!

 

In addition, when facing Belles I've found that playing Leveticus very aggressively up field tends to make him the target of these lures first. Basically, if the resser player doesn't target Leveticus first he can use Unmaking to de-animate at least one Belle each activation. While that sometimes means I lose a number of activations during the game from my master (due to him being buried or otherwise tied up) it also means that my necropunks (and other assorted scheme runners) are free to do their thing unimpeded. Plus, Leveticus just loves turning Belles into new Abominations and Channel pretty much negates HtW.

 

Personally, I agree that Ca8 on a 5SS model is too high. That said, I haven't had an experience yet were, win or lose, having Belles on the field made the game unwinnable. Generally, it was tactics, or lack there off, that made the difference instead. With the right amount of terrain on the field and the right crew against them I've found that Belles can lose their effectiveness quickly.

 

Toodlepip!

 

<gets lured away>

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

Hi Agrilushunter welcome to the madness!

 

I appreciate your strategy but that doesn't address the issue at large. There are a very select few hard counters to Bells. But, nothing that justifies a 5 stone model having a cb of 8.

 

To use Fetid's argument against himself, (he's used this numerous times in other threads) if one 5 stone model is allowed to have a ca 8 attack action then why doesn't other models have access to something that powerful? Because 8 is way to high a stat for anyone at that cost. Even a 10+ stone, henchman, or even master shouldn't have a stat that high without a very good reason. I remember Nekima having a cb 8 and they took away. She's 13 stones! So, I'm trying to find an argument in support of Bells.

 

So far, we've hard people say, it's not that bad. But I've yet to see a real good argument that justifies that Ca. Now that M2E is out and tournaments are coming in the  pipe line, I think we're going to see a lot of Bells in the top placements.

[sharpobjects]

Unfortunately, part of the problem could be your meta. Sometimes one tactic can become overwhelming in a meta, but when brought to a different meta gets shut down routinely. A single city, given consistent results, is probably cause to talk about it, but if it isn't being seen in multiple areas, it probably won't be changed. there were several large metas which never had problems with Dreamer, and the "Filth List" didn't even exist until over a year after all models in it came out.

 

It's going to take a few major tournaments being won by belle spam, most likely, before it can be proven to the devs that an errata is needed. Doesn't mean we shouldn't present our cases when we feel something is overpowered; it's one of the better ways to get multiple metas to test it, for one thing. It just means that any change will likely be at least 6 months or a year down the road. Keep posting and keeping track of batreps, though. More evidence means more chance of things moving.

 

 

I agree with you that in order to ultimately prove it someone from our group is going to have to win Adepticon and Maybe even Gen Con. Just to make one thing clear about a local meta. I am from Chicago, 3rd largest city in the country. We have 4 active game stores that we rotate which comprises of not only the City of Chicago but many surrounding suburbs. We have also developed a relationship with guys from a store in Milwaukee Wisconson. They dont have as many experienced players as we do but they do have a few. So I would like to think our Meta is larger than one store in a small community in the USA or even in another Country. At least 8 of the people in my local area have been involved with the game for about 5 years and heaviliy involved in play testing through out the years. 

 

I like playing my Molly and Seamus. When very experienced players are telling me that they feel I am winning because of an 8 CA lure on a 5 SS model that can be spammed at hire and summoned then I think there is a problem that needs to be brought to the forum.

 

I agree that I will provide data over the next several months through the Adepticon tournament and keep throwing other factions/masters at it to see if we can stop the winning streak. 

[ehren37]

I don't see how you make that claim, austringers you can only have 2! Illuminated don't have a 8 in any attack action stat! They are not comparable. The issue with bells is that they have an ability that is almost a guarantee to work and they can spam it. Maybe your  meta just hasn't caught on to that yet.

 

Also of note, Illuminated require brilliance to achieve full results, but are not good at handing that out themselves. That normally requires the overpriced and absurdly fragile beckoners. Belles are broken right out of the gate. Also, you know, cost more, cant be summoned, etc.