Rotten Bells, Lure is too Much

[mythicFOX]

No but they do mean you can protect key models and make the Belles work for their lure, and get models that have been lured forward by one into cover before the lure from the next.

[Dracomax]

It also doesn't help that I don't see any severe terrain on 90% of those boards. A lot of blocking terrain, but blocking isn't supposed to be the only terrain you use.

[Ratty]

A decent amount of terrain in concert with taking some models that help if you know your facing Rezers.. Any thing that puts up blocking terrain, is Stubborn, can pull models back to it. Is immune to WP duels.

This game is also balanced around knowing which faction your opponent is playing.

[PolishSausage]

The problem is people expect the use counter models against bells 100% of the time

 

The problem is people expect to hide from bells all game and win it

 

The problem is people think its a perfect worlds and terrain is always going to favor their playstyle

 

The problem is casting 8 will win you most duels so its nearly 90-95% at opposed duels where your opponent cant contest it

 

The problem is it has a fantastic trigger that I WILL trigger many times from 6 bells (12 lures)

 

Finally unless you have faced belles x6+ can you really voice your oppinion on the matter? I have 20+ games with the particular crew and know others that run simmilar setup with different reser masters running a startup of 3-4 bells mandatory

[The Godlyness]

I blame your meta. But i have confidence in your ability to adapt and overcome.

[Ratty]

Your assuming none of us have ever faced Belles or played with Belles. Seamus is one of my main Masters. I find that in my meta it's not worth running more than 2 or 3 of them. They do one thing very well and suck at everything else.

I feel what is important is to bring some Rocks, some Scissors and some Paper to the table.. then you win by using the Rocks against their Scissors, the Scissors against their Paper etc... If you bring all Paper to the table.. you will do awful against Scissors, great against Rock..

If you are refusing to bring Paper to the table when you know your opponent will probably be running a lot of Rock, just because you like Scissors a lot then you are going to have your Scissors broken a lot and have a bad time M-Kay.

[HalcyonSeraph]

The problem is people expect the use counter models against bells 100% of the time

 

The problem is people expect to hide from bells all game and win it

 

The problem is people think its a perfect worlds and terrain is always going to favor their playstyle

 

The problem is casting 8 will win you most duels so its nearly 90-95% at opposed duels where your opponent cant contest it

 

The problem is it has a fantastic trigger that I WILL trigger many times from 6 bells (12 lures)

 

Finally unless you have faced belles x6+ can you really voice your oppinion on the matter? I have 20+ games with the particular crew and know others that run simmilar setup with different reser masters running a startup of 3-4 bells mandatory

 

No, the problem is people conflating "getting lured" with "immediately losing the game". No one is saying you can use those things to 100% avoid getting lured by a Belle ever. You can't. But you also don't get to theorycraft your perfect table where 6 Belles chain lure you into instant death. A combination of intelligent counter models and tactics, terrain, and target priority can mean you can mitigate the presence of 30 points of models who do nothing at all but Lure you and maybe use your own models to DO anything, rather than just throwing your hands up and saying OMG LURE I LOSE. 

 

I know you have experience with this list, and I know your local meta can't deal with it. Congrats, or condolences, depending on which you want to hear. 

[PolishSausage]

You can blamy my meta all you want but it does not justify the fact that playing = playtesting. Game developes not by playing one game but many games and generating different outcomes. When you play one list against different lists and your opponents eventually run nothing but 100% counter and still can not win there must be a problem.

How can something be balanced when across many games(tests) it generates the same outcome, it is by default inherently broken and you can not say that its "ok" .

 

If you played against me 20 matches and lost all 20 of them playing different lists and trying to counter my list while I played the same setup through 20 of them how would that make you feel? Would you play game number 21? or go f@#$ it and tell me to change my list because its broken.

 

THis exact thing happened in 1.5 where erata had to fix models- we need that erata now or in near future

[ehren37]

Those look more than 50% terrain, with most pieces bigger than 3" (and that last town table looks the wrong size). I'm also seeing more buildings than other types. By the book, with a roughly even mix, it should be about 10% blocking terrain on average. If the game really wants 60-70% board coverage that's great, but it needs to say so in the rules.

[Ratty]

But what your seeing is not being seen everywhere. It's being seen in your play group.

In 1.5 I could take my Kirai crew and win against every list I came up against. Is this because Kirai was OP (possibly but no more overpowered than the Dreamer or Hamelin, both of which I regularly beat)? Nope it was because I clicked with Kirai's playstyle and opponents didn't know how to deal with her.

[Ratty]

Those look more than 50% terrain, with most pieces bigger than 3" (and that last town table looks the wrong size). I'm also seeing more buildings than other types. By the book, with a roughly even mix, it should be about 10% blocking terrain on average. If the game really wants 60-70% board coverage that's great, but it needs to say so in the rules.

Yeah those tables we were using were for Demoing at conventions so they were 6' so you could run 2 games next to each other or 3 games of 2'x3' if we got busy.

[Mako]

In 1.5 I could take my Kirai crew and win against every list I came up against. Is this because Kirai was OP (possibly but no more overpowered than the Dreamer or Hamelin, both of which I regularly beat)? Nope it was because I clicked with Kirai's playstyle and opponents didn't know how to deal with her.

 

People say she was OP, but I never won a game with her... 

 

I was so terrible with that crew last edition (I've not tried again yet).

[Dracomax]

Outside of the terraclips boards, none of them come close to being over 50%. They cover the whole board when spread out, but total coverage does in fact appear to be closser to 40%.

 

Unless you get used to using the full amount of terrain with smaller pieces, it is easy to think there is too much on there. Of course, it's really easy to check the amount you have: line it all up so there isn't any non-terrain space against one edge. if it fits between 9 inches and 18 inches on the perpendicular edge, it's the right amount.

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

I'm sorry but terrain cannot be the blanket here. Not everyone has all the correct terrain, not every community has enough terrain, not every tournament will have perfect terrain. Terrain is an extremely subjectives concept and cannot be used to 'fix' objective game elements. Ca 8 is a problem, hell even if you don't get lured turn 1 and lose models right away. You cannot avoid it late game either. Turn 5 when you're sitting on your objective and there is a Bell sitting around. One lure and your out of VP against an ability you had no hope to win.

[mythicFOX]

I'm happy to throw down on VASSAL against a Belle Lure list if anyone wants a game tomorrow?

[HalcyonSeraph]

You can blamy my meta all you want but it does not justify the fact that playing = playtesting. Game developes not by playing one game but many games and generating different outcomes. When you play one list against different lists and your opponents eventually run nothing but 100% counter and still can not win there must be a problem.

How can something be balanced when across many games(tests) it generates the same outcome, it is by default inherently broken and you can not say that its "ok" .

 

If you played against me 20 matches and lost all 20 of them playing different lists and trying to counter my list while I played the same setup through 20 of them how would that make you feel? Would you play game number 21? or go f@#$ it and tell me to change my list because its broken.

 

THis exact thing happened in 1.5 where erata had to fix models- we need that erata now or in near future

 

Well, if I played 20 games against your 6 Belles list and lost all 20 despite changing my tactics up, its either because you're a much better player than me, or because something is broken, sure. 

 

But two things are wrong here: One is that there hasn't been enough time to make sweeping changes to a game based on localized trends, and the other is that you are taking your own experiences and assuming they are scalable to a level where it is a valid statistical test for the game as a whole. I also think you are exaggerating, as people tend to do all the time: I do not think you have easily won 20 games in a row with the same list against a variety of opponents and skill levels. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I fully accept that stuff may turn out to be broken and need errata. I just don't think we are at that point yet, and no amount of arguing in this thread will bring us there. Go win Adepticon. Go win GenCon. Go win enough stuff with that list that people start calling it the New Filth and bitching about it. Show that it damages the game by existing. If you can do that it'll get erratad. If you can't, then it doesn't need to be. 

[ehren37]

Yeah those tables we were using were for Demoing at conventions so they were 6' so you could run 2 games next to each other or 3 games of 2'x3' if we got busy.

Ok just so we're clear thats not what a standard table should look like. It still appears to have more than 50% terrain features. Which probably does make for a more balanced game, but again, isn't really what is reflected in the rules. Its not that those with 30% table coverage are doing it wrong.

[Ratty]

If the game is balanced around a certain amount of terrain, having far less or totally different terrain is going to mean some crews or models are overpowered.. FACT.
 

 

Outside of the terraclips boards

 

Not Terraclips, Rattyclips, they use foam card and magnets.

 

[Kadeton]

You can blamy my meta all you want but it does not justify the fact that playing = playtesting. Game developes not by playing one game but many games and generating different outcomes. When you play one list against different lists and your opponents eventually run nothing but 100% counter and still can not win there must be a problem.

 

Come on, if your opponents were really running full-on hard counters to Belle-spam lists they wouldn't have any problems against 6+ Belles. Any Sonnia list, for example, can either ignore the Belles entirely, or make the only available targets things that will explode when they get there. Have fun with your 30 stones of worthless models.

 

I'm not saying that everyone should immediately switch to playing Sonnia (though if they want to beat your Belles, it wouldn't hurt) - just that your assertion of them running "100% counter" and losing seems very unlikely.

 

(Psst - don't tell anyone, but both the Wendigo at 3 stones and the Metal Gamin at 4 also have attacks with an 8 Ml/Ca. Game-breaking!)

[Dracomax]

If the game is balanced around a certain amount of terrain, having far less or totally different terrain is going to mean some crews or models are overpowered.. FACT.

 

 

Not Terraclips, Rattyclips, they use foam card and magnets.

 

My mistake, and take my money now.

[ehren37]

If the game is balanced around a certain amount of terrain, having far less or totally different terrain is going to mean some crews or models are overpowered.. FACT.

 

 

 

Right, but there's a big difference in how a 25% table plays, and how a 50% table plays, despite both being in the listed acceptable range. You keep stating the guys with lower coverage (33%) are doing it wrong and need to l2p noobs, but the rules tell them its the average. If its meant to be 40-50%, it needs to say that. The recommended range spread is probably too large and vague. 

Also those buildings on the demo table look better than most of the MDF kits I've seen. Are they scratch built?

[Ratty]

Ok just so we're clear thats not what a standard table should look like. It still appears to have more than 50% terrain features. Which probably does make for a more balanced game, but again, isn't really what is reflected in the rules. Its not that those with 30% table coverage are doing it wrong.

 

The Dessert Demo table is around 50% terrain, if you collected up the terrain on one side of that board I doubt it would go past the center line.

 

But those tournament tables had practically no cover.. it was straight up trees spread out.. and if you collected them up I doubt it would have even been 15% terrain. In fact

 

 

If you take a equilateral triangle as they tessellate.. and put tree bases in it. you get in 1 base + 6 halves, for 3 sixth of terrain.. that works out as 0.5/4 so 12% terrain..  You are saying that Belles are overpowered when you have 12% terrain on the board.. which I have to agree with, they probably are.

 

The large pieces of terrain were in the corners.. all they did was make setting up your crew a pain and cut down the play area, even if you could set up on them, they were open ground just raised, so I don't give cover, block line of sight or slow movement.

[PolishSausage]

 

(Psst - don't tell anyone, but both the Wendigo at 3 stones and the Metal Gamin at 4 also have attacks with an 8 Ml/Ca. Game-breaking!)

 

scoring minions that dont need other support pieces to achieve objectives?

[Ratty]

scoring minions that dont need other support pieces to achieve objectives?

 

yep Metal Gamin are scoring.

[Dracomax]

Honestly, I'd suggest 33-50%, with at least 10-25% being severe terrain.

 

And I understand the argument that not everyone has equal access to all kinds of/enough terrain. That being said, felt is cheap. it may not look as nice, but it makes things like forests and swamps affordable and workable for everyone. If anyone is willing to put out a little effort, and a little money, it really isn't that difficult to get a lot of different types of terrain in all sizes for really quite cheap.

 

And if you can't manage that, you have to understand and accept that certain lists will be overpowered, and then compensate, usually by not running those specific OP lists. It isn't a sign of the game being imblanced, but of your terrain selection being imbalanced.