Perdita Ortega - An Intermediate Guide

[dgraz]

Ok.

[Panner_]

After a couple days of conversation, I see that a lot of this is just Perdita.....with whatever....not Family. Everyone, including new players assume that when you post about a master that you're posting about the crew that they come with. This is strongly alternative..........I think you should make a clearer disclaimer in your opening lines stating that........something like "this isn't about the Ortegas, but about Perdita and how I run her with other models."

 

Even I didn't realize you were so far off family just from reading the first post......seems like you're running lists with none or maybe 1 family member. People get ideas reading the first post, only to find out many posts later that nothing really applies to a standard family list.

 

This isn't an attack in any way, and I still like your post. I totally agree that you should be able to run non-standard lists.......but that's that....non-standard......it's misleading, especially for newer players.

 

I do post about the crew that coems with Perdita. Way down at the bottom is the section 'Starting Perdita', where I give recommendations about how to use the box to get started with crew building.

 

I can't control what people assume, but I can say that I never intended to lead anyone to believe the guide was about Family when it isn't. And I specifically used very broad formulations such as "other Guild models that are likely found in Perdita's crew" to make this clear. However, if the default assumption is that a Perdita guide be about Family, then I have no problems making it more clear that this one is not. I'll put it on the list!

 

Really?  Well I guess Standard and Non Standard is more based on Community and area.  To me, seeing a Pure Family list is Non-Standard or a Beginner as they are only playing with the box because that is all they have.  I will agree that the post is more along the lines of Perdita Crew, he says from the get go it focuses on Perdita as a master, and the other model things are more extras then the focus.  From reading the first post I never thought it was about running pure family, just looking at his Recommended, decent, and what not list told me that loud and clear.  If anything I strongly advocate this thread for thinking outside the only family mindset.

 

Personally, I think 'Standard' is 'whatever gives you best chances to win'. If you have a well-protected tower on the field, Nino can be standard. If the opponent is running all-melee, Peacekeeper can be standard. Since the guide can't cover all possible situations, I base recommendations on how generally useful models/upgrades/etc are, and comment on cases where they are more or less so.

 

I did say that it was misleading for newer players. I also said that I liked the thread and that it was good to think in non-standard ways.

 

I disagree with your opinion that Pure Family is non-standard or beginner.........I am far from a beginner but I like the fluffiness of being able to run a pure family list......just like when I play Marcus, I rarely avail myself of the other Arcanist models he has available (even though many really work well with him) and usually take pure beast lists......and if anything, at least with Marcus, I have far more models than any Marcus 'beginner' would have.

 

My only suggestion was that I thought it would be beneficial for beginners if the OP stated that it was more about thinking outside the box and using non-Family models.

 

The guide is not primarily for new players. It's for intermediate players. I tried to make that as clear as possible so that I wouldn't need to include beginner stuff like explaining game terms or very basic tactics. If it's not clear enough, I will gladly make it more so.

[doubledragon]

Regardless of whether this is an intermediate guide or beginner guide, people have different play styles and different ways of using different models. That's one of the many reasons as to what makes Malifaux such a great game. With that said, I don't see why "intermediate" players would use less Family models? I've been playing Perdita for close to 3 years now and I still play predominantly Family crews with her. If it works for you, great!

Personally, as said before, I prefer to run Perdita with a crew consisting largely of Family. For fluff reasons and gameplay reasons.

Here are the gameplay reasons:

Perdita's "Relocate" only works with friendly Family models. So more friendly Family models gives you more options as to where to move her with that very important free move. Mix this up with the Nephilim's shackled and the Hermanos de Armas upgrade, you'll rarely need to spend one of Perdita's actions on a walk.

Nino's "Spotter" only works with friendly Family models. I know there's not much love on this thread for Nino, but his "Spotter" ability is very powerful if the strategy or schemes call for it.

Santiago's "Covering fire" only works with friendly Family models engaged in melee. Combine this with Perdita in melee, not much will survive, especially if Santiago has hair trigger.

Perdita's "Ortega Presence" +2WP within 8 inches aura from her Aura Ancestral upgrade, only works on friendly Family models. An all WP 7-8 crew versus Pandora/Zoraida/Dreamer? Santiago, Nino, Loco and Pistolero's all with a (0) action to rid themselves of conditions? #Winning!

[LunarSol]

Personally, I can see drifting away from the Family kit.  I was a bit surprised myself when I first got them how many Family specific bonuses they had.  I think the Pistolero's are the glue that makes the Family build really work though.  A lot of the family wants to stay back but a lot of family abilities look for figures upfield.  Francisco can fill this role, but it makes him a little too lynchpin for the full synergy.  Having some cheaper models that you can get up ahead makes a lot of the Family abilities significantly more relevant.  

[Panner_]

With that said, I don't see why "intermediate" players would use less Family models?

 

Presumably because a beginner playing straight out of the start box runs 100% family (counting the totem as honorary family member), which means an intermediate player can't exactly play more family.

 

All joking aside, a more experienced player will recognize the situations in which Family models just won't cut it and will look elsewhere.

 

A crew built from a pool of all available models will always be as good as or better than a crew built from a pool of only Family models.

[LunarSol]

 

A crew built from a pool of all available models will always be as good as or better than a crew built from a pool of only Family models.

 

I'm reasonably certain this is not the case, but I'm guessing its not exactly what you were trying to say.

[dgraz]

Totally agree with Dragonlady. There is so much synergy in an Ortega crew......that they are priced for (including the incredibly potent 'Relocate', 'Aura Ancestral', and 'I'll Cover You'....and potentially 'Spotter' as well (it's better than 'Chatty' and I can't express how much I hate 'Chatty')........that you're basically just throwing away.....or at least seriously diluting.

 

Also agree that now that the Pistolero is available the all Family crew is even more viable and is able to compete in a much wider array of Schemes.

I'm reasonably certain this is not the case, but I'm guessing its not exactly what you were trying to say.

Agree that it isn't the case....unfortunately, I think that was what was meant. But, different strokes and all that. If someone is using different models that work for them and they win games, who am I to say they are wrong?

[LunarSol]

 

Agree that it isn't the case....unfortunately, I think that was what was meant. But, different strokes and all that. If someone is using different models that work for them and they win games, who am I to say they are wrong?

 

I think he's trying to say its possible to build something at least as good out of the full set of available options than the subset of Family.  Saying its always at least as good or better fails to acknowledge the limitless potential of creative failures.  

[EntrepeNinja]

I can see both sides of the argument... The family synergy is one of the reasons I would choose perdita over other guild masters, especially frank or santiqgo. even if ti's just one of them. In fact, a lot of times when I'm NOT playing dita, I'll bring frank and santi as a two man power house... amaing 15 point duo.

 

Thoughts on Abuela- She is such a cool model!! She has a out of turn 0 action push... any model not just family. is she engaged? Let frank or santiago push her out, them she can shoot in. She blocks charges. She has an amazing stat line, She has an amazing sh of 7, with an amazing trigger with slug. She has a 0 action frindly obey.

 

Give her diestro. Team her with Santiago, She, focuses. Shoots. Obeys Santiago. He shoots. Santiago Companions. 0 action pushes her into melee. Then Rapid fires. .He's sh 6, they're at a negative twist to shoot, and he gets three attacks with potential trigger happy triggers.

 

Next turn do it in reverse. He rapid fires, drops in as many attacks as he can, then pushes her out, companions, she focuses, shoots going for one big shot with slug, then 0 action obeys.

 

If you'ee running them with dita, Dita and frank are one duo, santiago and abuela are the other. 

 

I've seen a lot of success with that old broad...

 

ENinja

[zFiend]

Great post. Great discussion. Thank for taking the time to do this post.

 

As for the Santi and Abuela duo, that sounds great

[doubledragon]

 

Totally agree with Dragonlady.

 

@ Dgraz, you mean doubledragondyl? Hehe, it's a confusing profile name, I know. I'm not a lady, at least I wasn't last time I checked

I have to agree with Entrepeninja, I've been having a lot of success with Abuela. I didn't like the look of her on paper, but when I started playing her, she really impressed me. Been using her to a similar fashion as to what Entrepeninja mentioned with great results. Her auto slug trigger on her shotgun can be devastating if you get lucky, 8 damage from one shot! Ouch!

[zFiend]

@ Dgraz, you mean doubledragondyl? Hehe, it's a confusing profile name, I know. I'm not a lady, at least I wasn't last time I checked

 

 

I guess you just got a new nickname then? Not an absolute winner though, but all nicknames aren't

[Dracomax]

I think he's trying to say its possible to build something at least as good out of the full set of available options than the subset of Family.  Saying its always at least as good or better fails to acknowledge the limitless potential of creative failures.  

Well, I would say that it is always possible to build a better crew for schemes and strategies if you have access to the full range of models than if you only have access to the family, with the clarification that sometimes, that means you just use family because it is the best for the scheme/strategies available.

 

i.e. more options are always better, even if you do not use them. I'm not sure if that is what was meant by the OP, but it is what I took from it. And, to a certain extent, I truly do see the value here, even if other players might think it goes overboard.

 

I think if seeing this tactica helps newer players figure out what to branch out to or which options to pick up to play more effectively, it is a good thing. Homogenous lists are boring, and tend to have weaknesses that allow one new combo to come in and sweep a tournament. It also tends to leave a lot of Intermediate players feeling dissatisfied.

 

Ideally, I think this would be great alongside a second tactica extolling the virtues of family, in a point-counterpoint fashion. Let newer and intermediate players see the strengths and weaknesses of family/non-family and figure it out for themselves. It makes things interesting. In both the common, and the ancient Chinese curse variants of the word.

[Panner_]

Thoughts on Abuela- She is such a cool model!! She has a out of turn 0 action push... any model not just family. is she engaged? Let frank or santiago push her out, them she can shoot in. She blocks charges. She has an amazing stat line, She has an amazing sh of 7, with an amazing trigger with slug. She has a 0 action frindly obey.

 

Give her diestro. Team her with Santiago, She, focuses. Shoots. Obeys Santiago. He shoots. Santiago Companions. 0 action pushes her into melee. Then Rapid fires. .He's sh 6, they're at a negative twist to shoot, and he gets three attacks with potential trigger happy triggers.

 

Next turn do it in reverse. He rapid fires, drops in as many attacks as he can, then pushes her out, companions, she focuses, shoots going for one big shot with slug, then 0 action obeys.

 

I like that Abuela is one of the more unusual models, with the very high damage on her attack and unique talents. I think the best way to play her is to capitalize on the Obey-like action, and make sure to use it every turn. I really don't think Diestro is necessary if you want to pair her with Santiago. [-] to defense flips is nice, but both Santiago and Abuela have pretty high Sh, and Diestro really is quite expensive.

 

Well, I would say that it is always possible to build a better crew for schemes and strategies if you have access to the full range of models than if you only have access to the family, with the clarification that sometimes, that means you just use family because it is the best for the scheme/strategies available.

 

i.e. more options are always better, even if you do not use them. I'm not sure if that is what was meant by the OP, but it is what I took from it. And, to a certain extent, I truly do see the value here, even if other players might think it goes overboard.

 

Yes, exactly. Family models are generally strong (except Nino, the only one I really don't like), but they have some weaknesses that could be exploited. By my count, Perdita currently has access to 36 Guild models, and only 7 of those are family (counting the Nephilim). If you include mercenaries, the ratio is even worse. By virtue of sheer numbers alone, that makes it conceivable that a non-Family model is the best choice for a given task.

[EntrepeNinja]

I like that Abuela is one of the more unusual models, with the very high damage on her attack and unique talents. I think the best way to play her is to capitalize on the Obey-like action, and make sure to use it every turn. I really don't think Diestro is necessary if you want to pair her with Santiago. [-] to defense flips is nice, but both Santiago and Abuela have pretty high Sh, and Diestro really is quite expensive.

 

Diestro is expensive and not necessary if your just doing Santiago and her. But throw in any other shooter and the effect compounds. Also, if the opponent is at a negative twist, your mid ranged masks can start turning into extra attacks as well.  Again, I agree that it's cost prohibitive, but a negative twist means statistically lower numbers, and the loss of the chance to cheat.

 

ENinja

 

ps Except against moon shinobi.... freakin' gremlin.

[dgraz]

@ Dgraz, you mean doubledragondyl? Hehe, it's a confusing profile name, I know. I'm not a lady, at least I wasn't last time I checked

 

Haha....my bad. the pic of 'Dita and the letter combo....by brain was on 'auto-correct- and I think we all know what happens with that.

[Panner_]

Mini update!

 

- Changed the crew building headline 'Mandatory' to 'Highly Recommended'. I liked the symmetry of having that term for both upgrades and models, but it just didn't fit well enough.

- Francisco is now Highly Recommended.

- Expanded the Intro to better present the material.

- Added a line about the Nephilim using Shackle on itself.

- Added another First Turn Play.

- Fixed some typos and poor language.

[Mark Mercer]

I might be wrong, but doesn't nino gain + to attack shooting action?

[Arkion]

Thanks for taking the time to write this up!

 

It's given me a few points to consider, and I think it'll help newer folks think differently about Ms. Ortega, too.

 

(I also disagree with a ton of it, but hey, it's your thread, and I did enjoy the article ).

[doubledragon]

 

I might be wrong, but doesn't nino gain + to attack shooting action?

 

He does indeed. Which actually means you should be hitting your target most of the time with him if you have a decent card in hand.

He's not the best sniper in the game (that title goes to Hans), but he's a lot better than people give him credit for.

Try Papa Loco next to Nino with "hold this", he then has a positive flip for shooting and a positive flip for damage. Give Nino "hair trigger" - discard one card and get 3 shots. In those three shots, you'll be unlucky not to get one or two severe's (5 damage) in there. You'll be doing 9 damage on average with those 3 shots. And 15 damage if you get really lucky.

The only problem with this is if Papa Loco dies or gets obeyed into exploding, you could have a dead Papa Loco and a dead Nino. So if I'm using this combo of Loco and Nino, and I suspect there could be an exploding Loco sometime soon, I keep the Nephilim in range to get a shackled on Nino or Loco - keeping Nino out of harms way.

Also, Nino is a lot more survivable than his card shows. If he's in melee, obviously 1 action "where'd he go" push him out (4 inches) then walk him (3 inches) then shackle him twice with the Nephilim (11 inches). That's 18 inches back into safety and prime "hair trigger" range.

[Therril_83]

Try Papa Loco next to Nino with "hold this", your damage spread becomes 4-7, 5-8 with critical strike. Give Nino "hair trigger" and you'll be doing a minimum threat of 12 damage with those 3 shots (max 21) from 18 inches away from your target. That means something is going to die, or your opponent will need to use a lot of resources for something not too.

I'm sorry, I don't quite follow. How does Papa Loco give Nino +3dmg?

[zFiend]

He's not the best sniper in the game (that title goes to Hans), but he's a lot better than people give him credit for.

 

I think that title goes to the little gremlin guy with dumb luck

[Dracomax]

I'm sorry, I don't quite follow. How does Papa Loco give Nino +3dmg?

IIRC, Papa Loco can give it to basically anyone he is close enough to, but it's a double edged sword, because you are close to papa Loco.

 

Nino also has that ridiculous Spotter ability. Yeah, if he can see you, and there's a family member nearby, you can't take interact actions—because that on a sniper with from the shadows is fair.

[Therril_83]

IIRC, Papa Loco can give it to basically anyone he is close enough to, but it's a double edged sword, because you are close to papa Loco.

 

Nino also has that ridiculous Spotter ability. Yeah, if he can see you, and there's a family member nearby, you can't take interact actions—because that on a sniper with from the shadows is fair.

I'm only seeing a positive twist on damage from the old psyco, unless I'm missing an upgrade or something..

 

The Spotter ability is what I think we all can agree on, Nino-fans and others alike. That is an incredibly powerful ability if you are playing interact-heavy strategys and schemes, and are running with at least a handful of family models. 

[zFiend]

I'm only seeing a positive twist on damage from the old psyco, unless I'm missing an upgrade or something..

 

Me too. Where is the extra damage coming from?