PeregrineFalcon Posted July 10, 2014 Report Share Posted July 10, 2014 I Also bear in mind that Tara hasn't even officially been released, so it would be very easy to re-work Karina before the real release. The only people affected would be nightmare tara set owners. She has been officially released. She is in the 1st M2E book, can't get more official than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manic Mouse Posted July 10, 2014 Report Share Posted July 10, 2014 She has been officially released. She is in the 1st M2E book, can't get more official than that. I'm sure tens of people will be playing Tara without any Tara models over the next couple of years, because she's in the book. Better not fix that broken model then! Her stats have been "officially" released. The models haven't, therefore any changes to the cards (that come with the models) will have a minimal impact on players. If there was ANY time to re-work/errata Karina it's now, before the models are released. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeregrineFalcon Posted July 10, 2014 Report Share Posted July 10, 2014 I'm sure tens of people will be playing Tara without any Tara models over the next couple of years, because she's in the book. Better not fix that broken model then! I didn't say that. She could use some massaging (Karina that is), but to argue that she isn't released is false information. I have no doubts that Wyrd will handle this appropriately in order to get an errata/newupgrade/etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypoking Posted July 10, 2014 Report Share Posted July 10, 2014 Meh. Come the next wave of the beta they'll probably throw a few freebie upgrades at the crew. Given the noise Karina seems like a choice target. At this point all we can do is wait and pray it doesn't end up being some absurdly convoluted summoning mechanic. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manic Mouse Posted July 10, 2014 Report Share Posted July 10, 2014 I didn't say that. She could use some massaging (Karina that is), but to argue that she isn't released is false information. I have no doubts that Wyrd will handle this appropriately in order to get an errata/newupgrade/etc. I shall amend my statement to "her crew box hasn't been officially released yet" to keep everyone happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manic Mouse Posted July 10, 2014 Report Share Posted July 10, 2014 Meh. Come the next wave of the beta they'll probably throw a few freebie upgrades at the crew. Given the noise Karina seems like a choice target. At this point all we can do is wait and pray it doesn't end up being some absurdly convoluted summoning mechanic. Yeah, fringe use abilities are not what she (or the crew in general) need, she needs some core ability to bring her up to par IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted July 10, 2014 Report Share Posted July 10, 2014 I thought the point of the "patch upgrades" would be more to counter certain strategies that a crew may suffer against or expand utility etc, rather than basically add a mandatory upgrade to a "useless" model to make it playable. Because at that point they are basically errata, but optional errata. People still have to get access to the patch "upgrade", and it doesn't make base Karina worth 5SS so at that point you might as well just errata the original base card. Maybe I'm wrong, but the idea of giving a rubbish model an upgrade to make it useful doesn't seem very elegant when you can simply errata the model in the first place. Also bear in mind that Tara hasn't even officially been released, so it would be very easy to re-work Karina before the real release. The only people affected would be nightmare tara set owners. Personally I'd like to give the model the option of 2 different upgrades, because as you say, 1 upgrade thats costs 0 is almost the same as an errata on the card. More than 1 allows play style choices. as can be seen with the Oxfordian mages (and soon with the samurai), and also Marcus to a degree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypoking Posted July 10, 2014 Report Share Posted July 10, 2014 Summoning in general just seems like a bad idea for Tara n' Pals. No key word means they'd either have to summon wretches specifically or try to stretch her thematic tent over another master's goodies. Maybe you could squeeze in horrors or tormented but the connection's tenuous at best. So it would run into the kinda funny problem of trying to make her thematic junk appetizing by having them lean on an entirely new set of toys. On top of that summoning mechanics tend to favor holding onto cards towards the end of the turn while the voidies bend explicitly in the opposite direction. Edit: I thought the point of the "patch upgrades" would be more to counter certain strategies that a crew may suffer against or expand utility etc, rather than basically add a mandatory upgrade to a "useless" model to make it playable. Because at that point they are basically errata, but optional errata. People still have to get access to the patch "upgrade", and it doesn't make base Karina worth 5SS so at that point you might as well just errata the original base card. Yeah, but the key thing is they don't have to call it an errata. Which, apparently, makes it much easier to swallow when they have to do something like retool three of the basic mooks for a faction on the back end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiralngCadavr Posted July 11, 2014 Report Share Posted July 11, 2014 I thought the point of the "patch upgrades" would be more to counter certain strategies that a crew may suffer against or expand utility etc, rather than basically add a mandatory upgrade to a "useless" model to make it playable. Because at that point they are basically errata, but optional errata. People still have to get access to the patch "upgrade", and it doesn't make base Karina worth 5SS so at that point you might as well just errata the original base card. This is a really strong point: whether the patch is an upgrade or an errata'd card, people would still need to get the fix, and errata is more elegant than a 0-pt upgrade: it means you can't keep another upgrade, is more material on the table, and is rules that aren't on the model's card. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted July 11, 2014 Report Share Posted July 11, 2014 Except then you get into the situation like we had last time where you need to actually KNOW there is errata, and WHAT it is. The amount of times I had to explain to new players last edition what many of the errata'd book 2 cards actually did staggers the mind. I wish I had a nickel for every time I had to explain the correct wording Irresistible, and what the ability actually did as opposed to what was ON the card.. Printing an upgrade to fix a model is more elegant because it is easier to make the upgrade available as part of a book or pack release, which means people WILL get ahold of it, and it's not like they can't on occasion either have the upgrade not take up a slot, or make it slightly even better than the cost would indicate to offset having to burn the slot. As long as it's done carefully I vastly prefer fixes via upgrade. There are some instances which might be spread across 3 or more models which might be problematic, in which case I might agree with you, but I prefer the path they are using at the moment, but YMMV. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Justin Posted July 11, 2014 Popular Post Report Share Posted July 11, 2014 This is a really strong point: whether the patch is an upgrade or an errata'd card, people would still need to get the fix, and errata is more elegant than a 0-pt upgrade: it means you can't keep another upgrade, is more material on the table, and is rules that aren't on the model's card. Just going to pop in here. Errata, in any form, is not elegant. You end up with two different versions of Karina floating around. People will end up using the old version without ever knowing it (which at the point of errata, is technically cheating, albeit in the most benign way possible). They may even see the new Karina card and just gloss over it, not knowing anything has changed. An upgrade patch means the old version of Karina is still 100% viable so if you, say, show up to a tournament with her you don't end up getting told you're not using the proper cards. When you see the upgrade, you know immediately that a change has been made, and what it is. So, no, it's not the same thing at all because it does not invalidate anything that came before. Which is important, even when what came before kinda sucked. Not to pick on you or anything, but I see "just errata it" get thrown around a lot. Which, if we kept doing, the game would basically get to the point that it's unplayable. A game designer suggesting errata is a bit like a doctor suggesting surgery; it happens, but it damn well better be necessary. Also, we're not going to update cards between the book and the model's box set anymore. I know this was a common practice in first edition, but I plan on halting it entirely with second edition. Again, it causes multiple versions to be floating around, which is confusing. I will admit to updating cards between the free wave 2 downloads and the officially printed cards (see the newest FAQ if you want to know exactly what) but a player will always be able to tell that so long as they have an officially printed stat card, it is 100% ready to use (unless it was one of the few cards we did surgery errata on). First edition heavily favored people who were able to constantly keep up with the forums and who were very attuned to what was going on with Wyrd. While that group of people definitely needs to be respected, accessibility to new players is also key. And making any updates as clear as possible is very important to that philosophy. 13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hateful Darkblack Posted July 11, 2014 Report Share Posted July 11, 2014 I'm great glad to hear you're putting so much thought into this, Justin! Thank you. And I like the surgery metaphor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matney X Posted July 11, 2014 Report Share Posted July 11, 2014 It's also great to know you're watching the Karina thread instead of brushing it off as a bunch of whiners that can't figure out how to play a model properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracomax Posted July 11, 2014 Report Share Posted July 11, 2014 It's also great to know you're watching the Karina thread instead of brushing it off as a bunch of whiners that can't figure out how to play a model properly. Well, If someone opens a thread basically saying, "Please, tell me how to use this" and the entire thing devolves into people saying "you can't, it's broke, broke,broke"Then I would think that would tell a designer something—Either they let a lemon slip through, or the use they intended is extremely non-intuitive. Both would seem helpful. I think the great thing with a 0SS upgrade fix would be the potential to have multiple, different fixes. Sure, you can only use one at a time, but it seems like it would make for an interesting choiceto a player, while still serving the purpose of fixing the model without unduly increasing confusion potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matney X Posted July 12, 2014 Report Share Posted July 12, 2014 Well, If someone opens a thread basically saying, "Please, tell me how to use this" and the entire thing devolves into people saying "you can't, it's broke, broke,broke"Then I would think that would tell a designer something—Either they let a lemon slip through, or the use they intended is extremely non-intuitive. Both would seem helpful. Right -- it just seems an unusual thing for designers to respond to their customer base as regularly and clearly as Wyrd do. I get the distinct impression that some of the big dogs in this industry don't pay ANY attention to what their customers say is broken / OP, and I'm coming from one of those games, so it makes me feel really good that Wyrd is different. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiralngCadavr Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 Just going to pop in here.[...] Thanks for the response (and no, I don't feel picked on- a reasoned response is just that). In that light, I completely understand why you'd choose to use upgrades as pseudo-errata to avoid said problems, though still wish there were a way to approach errata that didn't limit or effectively obsolete* other options (non-upgrade/poorer upgrade choices) and that could lower power levels, too. * yeah, it's also a verb, still feel weird using it as one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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