Karina - how to get any use out of her?

[SpiralngCadavr]

I find it incredibly hard to believe that she was designed purposefully to be ineffective in order to match the fluff.

I'd love to know what Justin thought he was delivering that justified her 5ss cost. She's been a waste every time for me.

I like the model.

quoted for extreme truthiness.

[Math Mathonwy]

death marshals don't bring nearly enough to the table for 6 points for them to exist outside of a niche.

I would hire them for my Resser crews a lot if they were normally available to all - they have a nice gun and there's a lot of nasty beatsticks with less than stellar Wp which can be very nicely dealt with through offensive burying. I think that they are very nice.

[zFiend]

I would hire them for my Resser crews a lot if they were normally available to all - they have a nice gun and there's a lot of nasty beatsticks with less than stellar Wp which can be very nicely dealt with through offensive burying. I think that they are very nice.

 

I hope you are not talking about my poor Mr. Graves

 

But on Death Marshal's I think they are great, Pinebox is an amazing tool!

[Manic Mouse]

Comparatively, Karina is only based on fast and bury (which, outside Tara and the wretches) is extremely limited, the nothing beast has zero survivability outside a Tara list, and death marshals don't bring nearly enough to the table for 6 points for them to exist outside of a niche.

 

So... I guess if you completely redesigned Karina to do something else, she could do something else? But you're suggesting she becomes a strong assist piece for Tara, meaning even in this hypothetical where she's a henchman and wretches are totems, she wouldn't be good without tara since she couldn't get the interaction with wretches, which are mechanically closest to tara.

 

Master-centric Henchmen aren't really a rare thing though, I can't imagine Sebastian or the Firestarter being much use outside of their core crews.  They are far too poison/burning centric to be cost effective - my hench Karina would be in a similar boat and those models are who I had in mind when I thought about her as a proper hench since Karina's crew is similar to those crews in how it works with handing out a condition.  NB is in the same situation of being pretty much useless outside of the Tara crew as well though.  Wretches are arguable, but the fact they work off fast, buried and discarding your hand (terrible for anyone except Tara) makes me, on balance, think there are better options for other crews (such as Ronin).  Also don't forget they target Wp with their attack so are closer to Ml 3 than 4 without the various buffs of their theme crew. Your mileage may vary though.

 

Both NB and Karina are poster children for why open beta testing is vastly superior to closed testing, they never would have made it through as they are.

[DeleteAccount]

Sebastian is actually incredibly strong even if fielded "by himself" as long as there are a few errant models that poison 1 or 2 around the table, his aura damage is still devastating.

 

As for Tara and friends... well, Karina is a waste of space, no debating that at this stage, with an upgrade that makes her the summoner she should have been instead of the cornercase thing she has would give her a new leaf in life, with standard corpse marker working to keep it simple since It's pretty obvious she is already too much full of gimmicks to stack a new one on her and have her summon death marshals which would be a blessing for both ressers and outcasts, freeing them of having tot ake dead of winter if they want to use them. Make it a standard 10 of crows to summon and it's done.

 

The nothing beast though isn't that bad, if it was 9 SS it would be pretty awesome, just needs something to bump up it's survivability a bit or some more reliable utility and it could become a good all purpose enforcer

 

The wretches are golden, having a 0 action to spam slow on enemies is huge and with a Ca of 5 no less, them not being able to hit the broad side of a barn is not much of a factor because they should just be objective runners that happen to get a very nasty debuff.

[Manic Mouse]

As for Tara and friends... well, Karina is a waste of space, no debating that at this stage, with an upgrade that makes her the summoner she should have been instead of the cornercase thing she has would give her a new leaf in life, with standard corpse marker working to keep it simple since It's pretty obvious she is already too much full of gimmicks to stack a new one on her and have her summon death marshals which would be a blessing for both ressers and outcasts, freeing them of having tot ake dead of winter if they want to use them. Make it a standard 10 of crows to summon and it's done.

 

 

I've never been a fan of corner case, high impact abilities.  Far too RNG for my liking.

 

The question is would we rather see that kind of ability added in or see her upgraded to full hench?  Her card would require a re-write even if the summoning was an upgrade because her printed summoning ability then duplicates that but is worse.

[Manic Mouse]

Sometimes I like to play around with the models, this is what I was thinking for hench Karina...

 

Karina 7-8SS

Henchman, Living, Totem (Tara)

 

Df    Wp    Wd    Wk    Cg    Ht

 6      5       8       4       6      2

 

Accomplice: After this model ends its activation a friendly model within 6” may activate immediately.

 

Price of Eternity: Enemy models with Fast or Slow beginning their activation within  6 must pass a TN 14 Wp duel or suffer 2 damage which may not be reduced.

 

Manipulative 12: If this model has not yet Activated this Turn, when an enemy model targets this model with an Attack Action, the enemy model must pass a TN 12 Wp duel or the Action immediately fails.

 

Long Forgotten Magics: When another model within   8 would be killed, this model may discard a card to sacrifice the model instead.

 

Attack Actions

 

(1) Nether Hand (Ml 6 / Rst: Df / Rg:  1): Target suffers 2/3/4 damage. This Damage flip receives  against models with Fast.

  Through the Heart: After damaging, the target suffers damage equal to half its remaining wounds unless it discards two Control Cards or two Soulstones.

 

(1) Peacebringer (Sh 5 / Rst: Df / Rg:  10): Target suffers 2/3/5 damage.

 

(1) Energies of the Void (Ca 6 / Rst: Wp / Rg: 8): Before performing the duel, choose Fast or Slow. Target model gains the chosen Condition.  This Attack Action may target buried models.

 

Tactical Actions

 

(0) Flames of the Void: Every buried model must pass a TN 14 Wp duel or gain the Burning +2 Condition.

 

(0) Shattered Memories (Ca 7  / TN: 17 :crow / Rg: 8): Discard target Corpse Marker to summon a Death Marshal into base contact with it before removing it. Death Marshals summoned in this way lose the Living characteristic and gain the Undead characteristic permanently.

 

Upgrades

 

Voiceless Words (1SS)

 

This model along with friendly Void Wretch and Nothing Beast models within LoS of this model gain the following Ability:

 

Into the Abyss: After this model is killed or sacrificed by an enemy model, the enemy model must succeed on a TN 13 Wp duel or be buried. The model's controller unburies it at the end of the Turn in its Deployment Zone.

 

Restrictions: Karina or Tara, Rare 1

 

Temporal Paradox (3SS)

 

This model gains the following Ability:

 

The Abyss Stares Back: enemy models within 6 with Fast receive   to Wp flips.

 

Friendly Void Wretch and Nothing Beast models within LoS of this model gain the following Ability:

 

Out of Phase: When calculating "Pure Nothingness" the controller of this model's Hand counts as having 2 fewer cards, to a minimum of 0.

 

Restrictions: Karina

[SpiralngCadavr]

Sebastian is actually incredibly strong even if fielded "by himself" as long as there are a few errant models that poison 1 or 2 around the table, his aura damage is still devastating.

 

As for Tara and friends... well, Karina is a waste of space, no debating that at this stage, with an upgrade that makes her the summoner she should have been instead of the cornercase thing she has would give her a new leaf in life, with standard corpse marker working to keep it simple since It's pretty obvious she is already too much full of gimmicks to stack a new one on her and have her summon death marshals which would be a blessing for both ressers and outcasts, freeing them of having tot ake dead of winter if they want to use them. Make it a standard 10 of crows to summon and it's done.

 

The nothing beast though isn't that bad, if it was 9 SS it would be pretty awesome, just needs something to bump up it's survivability a bit or some more reliable utility and it could become a good all purpose enforcer

 

The wretches are golden, having a 0 action to spam slow on enemies is huge and with a Ca of 5 no less, them not being able to hit the broad side of a barn is not much of a factor because they should just be objective runners that happen to get a very nasty debuff.

Yep. Just played Sebastian where the only crew interaction he had was with canine remains that he summoned, and both of us agreed he was MVP.

 

Agreed on the rest, too. I guess the NB could be patched either with something to up his defensive capacity or a model could be introduced that favored its survivability...

[Grim]

Hopefully brand new stat cards for Tara and her crew soon (should be enough time to test and include them in the next Arsenal boxes)

[SpiralngCadavr]

It would be nice, but it also sets a very dangerous precedent for Wyrd if they re-did most of/an entire crew.

 

A redone crew would be ideal, since I think the fixes could mostly be pretty minor but still would require reprints; more realistically I'd be happy with just Karina getting redone, since she's basically just plain useless, while the rest of the crew can be difficult or restrictive to use but still at very least situationally useful.

[Math Mathonwy]

I hope you are not talking about my poor Mr. Graves

I might be

 

But on Death Marshal's I think they are great, Pinebox is an amazing tool!

Yes! Ca5 is good since you win ties and the duel to get out is at Wp6. Wp7 is Master territory (Wp8 is Hannah territory... Wp10 is Pigapult) so keeping stuff boxed is actually pretty easy. And you can box something from full health with just one duel! That's huge! Oh, and then there are things like Lenny or Flesh Constructs - good luck getting out.

[DeleteAccount]

I'm plain not counting on a redo this late to the party, so no, henchmen Karina is probably not happening. Other option for making her a competent summoner is to give an upgrade that lets her "summon" work on undead models as well as living, because the living clause is a bad joke frankly seeing the crew composition and how unlikely she is to actually be alive for a living enemy to be 6" from her when it dies, aside from a huge kick to the nuts to her thematic crew. Then drop the cost to something like an 8 of crows (remembered she doesn't get use soulstone, so a 10+ of crows is stupid hard for her) or two cards or whatever and she gets her marshal, but with any card except a red joker it comes in at half wounds for example.

[Manic Mouse]

I'm plain not counting on a redo this late to the party, so no, henchmen Karina is probably not happening. Other option for making her a competent summoner is to give an upgrade that lets her "summon" work on undead models as well as living, because the living clause is a bad joke frankly seeing the crew composition and how unlikely she is to actually be alive for a living enemy to be 6" from her when it dies, aside from a huge kick to the nuts to her thematic crew. Then drop the cost to something like an 8 of crows (remembered she doesn't get use soulstone, so a 10+ of crows is stupid hard for her) or two cards or whatever and she gets her marshal, but with any card except a red joker it comes in at half wounds for example.

 

They should definitely put Long Forgotten Magics on her card and make the summoning of Death Marshals the upgrade IMHO.  Make it 3SS and cost 10 + off corpse counters.  It would make her much more worthwhile.  Maybe also make Energies of the Void be able to be used on non-buried models.  Then she would be worthy of her title as most expensive totem in the game!

[DeleteAccount]

They should definitely put Long Forgotten Magics on her card and make the summoning of Death Marshals the upgrade IMHO.  Make it 3SS and cost 10 + off corpse counters.  It would make her much more worthwhile.  Maybe also make Energies of the Void be able to be used on non-buried models.  Then she would be worthy of her title as most expensive totem in the game!

If it was by me, she'd be redone from the ground up, but I doubt a lot that she will ever get any form of errata till a new edition makes an appearance, that's the reason why I only consider it from an upgrade perspective, because the base card just isn't changing.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Pretty much what Raz said. Outside of very rare circumstances I'm pretty certain they are going to keep the errata down this edition, so when a player uses a card they have a pretty good chance of having the correct wording. Pretty certain they will adjust her through an upgrade in the future.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Agreed, most games see a lot of errata during the first edition and then get the bare minimum after their first true second one.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I could definitely see them making an upgrade for her in the future to assist in getting her played more often.

[Tuttleboy]

Errata her to 3 -maybe- 4 SS and leave the rest of the card and she could make it into a crew or 2.

[Clockwork_Fish]

There aren't many totems with summoning abilities, and having Karina hiding in a bush somewhere churning out fleas seems out of place for her.  The fluff describes her as healing Tara with 'obliteration fueled magics', so how about a healing upgrade?  Maybe something like...

 

Glimpse of the Void:  Ca: 5   TN: 12 :crow  Rg: 6.  Place a 30mm void marker within 6" of this model.  Friendly leader or incorporeal models who end their activation within 3" of the marker, they may make a 1/2/3 healing flip, then discard the void marker.  If an enemy model ends its activation within 3" of a void marker, they must pass a TN 12 willpower duel or be buried, then discard the marker.  A model buried this way will reappear in its own deployment zone at the end of the turn.

 

If you want summoning, I think the Nothing Beast fits better.  The description for Void Wretches say that they are shed-off bits of the NB.  An upgrade that gives it a defensive trigger similar to some pig models would be appropriate.

 

(wp/df ) Nothing to Worry About:  After taking damage, summon a Void Wretch into base contact with this model.  The Void Wretch suffers 2 damage that cannot be reduced.

 

A trigger like that is thematic, and plays more to its strengths than trying to shore up its weaknesses.  I like that he's a glass cannon, and I'd rather he keep with the theme of punishing an enemy for attacking him.

[entropolous]

 

(wp/df ) Nothing to Worry About:  After taking damage, summon a Void Wretch into base contact with this model.  The Void Wretch suffers 2 damage that cannot be reduced.

 

The Void Wretch suffers 4 damage that is reduced by the number of wounds lost by the Nothing Beast.

My 2 cents.

[Hateful Darkblack]

I would love to see some new Upgrades for Karina. Right now, I think she's nice because she has synergy with Tara's game style. She just doesn't seem to have enough kick to justify the cost yet.

[Drix]

Well... I mean is the possibility of lobbying for a retouch really so far out of hand?

 

Yes it'd be a pain in the ass because it would alter the profiles in the core rulebooks and the card decks already printed for Outcasts. Then again Tara's kit really isn't really out yet anyway, so the newly upgraded cards would be included in the kit when it drops. And Wyrd could send new cards to the people who bought the Nightmare Edition.

 

If this IS possible I'd really like to know because I'd beta test the hell out of this. I played Tara twice tonight simply because ofthe tactica thread that's up, but I didn't bother with Karina at all. I might proxxy her as a Malifaux child just to get her on the table. 

[Manic Mouse]

Well... I mean is the possibility of lobbying for a retouch really so far out of hand?

 

Yes it'd be a pain in the ass because it would alter the profiles in the core rulebooks and the card decks already printed for Outcasts. Then again Tara's kit really isn't really out yet anyway, so the newly upgraded cards would be included in the kit when it drops. And Wyrd could send new cards to the people who bought the Nightmare Edition.

 

I agree.  Any upgrade would just be a band-aid on the model, would also be mandatory to make her viable which is not exactly the point of upgrades and anyone who didn't have access to the upgrade card/rules is still stuck with a useless model (for example people who don't frequent the forums).

[Kadeton]

I agree.  Any upgrade would just be a band-aid on the model, would also be mandatory to make her viable which is not exactly the point of upgrades and anyone who didn't have access to the upgrade card/rules is still stuck with a useless model (for example people who don't frequent the forums).

Band-aid upgrades already have a strong precedent, and are one of the key points of the upgrade system - as the meta shifts, less popular models can receive patches to make them relevant again.

[Manic Mouse]

Band-aid upgrades already have a strong precedent, and are one of the key points of the upgrade system - as the meta shifts, less popular models can receive patches to make them relevant again.

 

I thought the point of the "patch upgrades" would be more to counter certain strategies that a crew may suffer against or expand utility etc, rather than basically add a mandatory upgrade to a "useless" model to make it playable.  Because at that point they are basically errata, but optional errata.  People still have to get access to the patch "upgrade", and it doesn't make base Karina worth 5SS so at that point you might as well just errata the original base card.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but the idea of giving a rubbish model an upgrade to make it useful doesn't seem very elegant when you can simply errata the model in the first place.  Also bear in mind that Tara hasn't even officially been released, so it would be very easy to re-work Karina before the real release.  The only  people affected would be nightmare tara set owners.