Mr Gaves & Mr Tannen

[zFiend]

Haha, Mr. Tannen just keep on sounding better and better. I kinda gave up on following him at some point of the beta when he seemed pretty useless but he came out great! How do you feel about Lynch's avatar? I really like the House Wins ability.

[MasterDisaster]

The House Wins seems fairly situational but overall pretty useful in those situations. 

 

All In seems pretty cool however it is at the cost of your hand.

 

Interest seems utterly epic though, you can't lose Brilliance at the end of the turn if within 8" 

 

The Vig could be great when used with Illuminated, great stuff

 

Default seems pretty awesome as well. 

 

Overall he looks pretty cool in Pre-Avatar and Avatar form but it doesn't scream out as being one of the better ones. 

[zFiend]

That's true. But if the consent is that Lynch is one of the top tier masters he propably shouldn't get an avatar which is also one of the better ones. I kinda like it, now I can't wait to see the model. I think the name is cool as hell also, simple yet effective. Avatar Of Debt. Could maybe do a bit more with the theme of House wins and that the debts need to be paid

[MasterDisaster]

I suppose you have a good point there. It's a shame for me personally as compared to other Avatars Lynch's seems a tad boring, especially considering his normal form is so interesting and unusual. I dunno, I was just expecting something different. Don't get me wrong it looks pretty cool but a some bits are great others not so much. Still, It's early so there's plenty of time to see how this progresses. I hope they turn his Avatar into some sort of Huggy Lynch hybrid. That could be quite cool. 

[Pip]

I like Endless Hunger but it always depresses me when Huggy dies and I can't bring him back! I love my Tadpole of Terror too much to keep him dead 

Ha! Tadpole of Terror! Love it! He's gonna get ya!!

 

I'd take Graves over an Illuminated any day of the week - and Illuminated are already pretty good. I find he's a great model for his cost, and manages to bring both offense, durability, and utility to just about any crew.

 

I don't think Tannen is useless, but he really needs the right list to work well in. I've got a Pandora crew built around Woes that he fits well in. As others have said, if you can keep him safe but close enough to hose the enemy, he adds quite a bit. You just have to be very careful with his use. He suffers a bit from the fact that his best effects (Chatty and turning off SS use) encourage him to go early in the round, and that turns off his primary protection (Manipulative) - though Graves can help with that.

Myth, I can definetly see where you're coming from. For a extra soulsone cost, on paper, it seems like you get alot more than the Illuminated.

However, IMO I think that the Illuminated can fulfill the same role of the beat stick, scheme dropper and have a little more tactical flexibility .

 

Granted, Graves does have a bigger damage spread but I think the Illuminated is better for a few of reasons.

1. Regen and a (0) action heal : For a 7 SS model that also has armour 1 I find them incredibly tanky. This means if your opponent wants to drop him he's either gotta drop him there and then or, focus another model to finish him off. Graves may have hard to kill. But there is alot out there that can ignore it. Additionally, Graves dosen't have a healing option either.

 

2. Flay: My god, the M2E version of this trigger is amazing!! Cheating on one or more negative flips is pants on head retarded. Sure, you can buy the flay upgrade for Graves (if you're running NB) but now he costs 10-11 SS. So  with the Illuminated you'll be doing severe damage of 5 (7 against Brilliant models) by just drawing the attacking duel. So, provided you're attacking a Brilliant model you've just surpassed Graves damage spread in every department. Now that's a beatstick! Amazing! I would have liked to have seen buffs applied to Graves against Brilliant models though.

 

3. Terrifying 10 and an 8 inch charge: These guys are quick!! Counting the 2 inch melee they have, the Illuminated have an effective engagement range of 10 inches. That's almost a third of the table! With Ml 6 and positive attack AND damage flips (with the addict upgrade against Brilliant models) they can get to where the fighting is thickest and more often that not, mess enemies up. Wk 5 is above average as well so either way, you've got 10 inches of movment/engagement range to play with. Graves does have rutheless, which is amazing, but forcing your opponent to flip/burn cards to target you IMO can stop that crucial enemy charge.

 

4. Df 5: Sure it's average but still better that Graves Df 4. Seems like the 'average' Ml this edition is 6 ish. Meaning your opponent can drop a 10 and still have a good chance to hit while you have to burn a 12-13 to either take a double negative damage flip or force your opponent to miss. I'd rather keep that high card for something more crucial.

 

5. Scintillating Cloud Shooting attack: I have to admit, I hardly every use this but sometimes, just sometimes it really swings a game for me. I generally like to find two or three models who are clustered together and hit em with this attack, drop the trigger then send huggy in to hit plus do his (0) action to heal and force horror dules on the Brilliant models. Most of the time at least one model fails and is paralysed. Like I said though, I don't really use the shooting attack much.

 

Graves is still a solid piece for his price but I think combined with his cost, lack of defensive abilites, (sure keeping the piece is good, but most players have hitty pieces who can stay outside the 6 inch bubble when declaring charges and black blood is only 1 inch) and the fact you really need Tannen (but lets not get started on that particualr chestnut) to get the most out of him, I find it a better investment to just take two Illuminated for the same cost if not one or two SS cheaper.

 

But hey, If he's working for you then sweet!! I just think that IMO that he's not an auto include 'every day of the week", every time over an Illuminated.

 

Cheers,

 

Pip.

[Myth]

Oh, I certainly think Illuminated are great! I don't think I'd ever run a Lynch list without them. But for me, it's also an easy choice to upgrade one to Graves. (And also an easy choice, generally, to leave Tannen at home.)

 

Notably, while Tannen is reliant on Graves for pretty much his most important mechanic (retaining Manipulative while still going early enough in the round to land his debuffs and turn on Chatty), I don't find that Graves needs Tannen at all. And for 1 SS more than the Illuminated, I find that his greater wounds and Hard to Kill makes him more durable, despite the loss in Df and healing.

 

Or rather, I find that Graves does a better job at standing up to elite foes. Illuminated are amazing when paired up against opposing minions - they tend to easily win any war of attrition with most enemies in their same price range, due to Terrifying, healing, and Armor. But a strong enough enemy can potentially clear them out in one activation. Graves is much harder to put down - even though, without their healing, he does tend to eventually fall under a sustained onslaught.

 

Offense wise, the Illuminated are also very solid. But they do tend to be the... resource-intensive type of model, in terms of offense. If the enemy has brilliance, they excel. If they can trigger flay and you have high cards to spare, they can do solid damage. But Graves I've found to be much more self-sufficient in reliably putting out damage, without the need for conditions of resources. Crushing Strike is often just as good as Flay (when not fighting Hard to Wound enemies), and can often help him land a bigger hit without the need to cheat. And higher min and max damage really sets his attack above the Illuminated.

 

The Illuminated do have a longer charge and an ok ranged attack. But Show Ya the Door adds an incredible amount of utility to the crew, both for giving extra movement to one of your friends, and ruining the enemy's plans later in the game. Keeping the Peace, meanwhile, is pretty much wasted space on his card, sure. But everything else is pretty much golden, and I have a hard time thinking of either a Nephilim crew or Darkened crew where I would leave him behind.

[MasterDisaster]

Notably, while Tannen is reliant on Graves for pretty much his most important mechanic (retaining Manipulative while still going early enough in the round to land his debuffs and turn on Chatty), I don't find that Graves needs Tannen at all. 

 

I've found that this is pretty much the case. In my experience (limited though it may be) Graves is quite happy wondering around beating face without Tannen, Tannen certainly helps with the push trigger on his Bored to Tears though. Tannen does rely on Graves a little more, especially if he wishes to activate early but that doesn't mean he can't operate without him. In my last game Tannen outlasted Graves by 2 turns and was still detrimental to my opponents game. I think they are both great models to put into your crew, both come with their own flavor of playstyle and offer some nice character to a Darkened crew.

 

 

 Keeping the Peace, meanwhile, is pretty much wasted space on his card, sure. But everything else is pretty much golden, and I have a hard time thinking of either a Nephilim crew or Darkened crew where I would leave him behind.

 

 

I must admit though I quite like keeping the peace, it means you have to have a high charge value to even attempt getting a charge off, I always attempt it and from time to time put a low mask from my hand into it to get it off. It has scuffled a few opponents plants once or twice. 

[Matney X]

Sorry for the Threadomancy, but I didn't want to start a new thread where there was already an old one.

I picked up Graves, yesterday, at one of my local shops -- I don't need him, and I don't have Lynch to go with him, but I do have Mei Feng and I figured "hey, Ten Thunders, and show the shop there are Malifaux players..."

So, how does Graves work in a non-Lynch 10T list?  What role does he fill that someone else doesn't?  How incredibly nasty is it to have Kang and Graves pound on some poor Resser?

[Falconrider]

Show you the door used on your own models stands out the most for me, then charge him into the fray.  Recalled Training would be an auto include if i had the spare stone making him a tanky beatstick. 

[zFiend]

He can push your models. enemy models, he's quite tough, he hits quite hard. I'd say he should do well in any TT list. 

[Falconrider]

He's a very pushy fellow 

[sparowl]

Graves can move models around. Friendly models early on, to get them in position. Which includes himself, since he pushes into base afterwards. Late game, push enemies around, and, if you can get a Ram, then follow up with a swing.

 

He hits hard, especially if you can get some Ram triggers.

 

His Keeping the Peace can also lock down enemy models, or at least for cheats to pass WP duels.

 

He is hard to take out. Armor, Hard to Kill, lots of wounds...makes for a solid enforcer.

 

One note: He has Bad Blood. Watch where you end your pushes, if you are moving friendly models around.

[Matney X]

Is Tannen worth running in non-Lynch lists?

[MasterDisaster]

Is Tannen worth running in non-Lynch lists?

 

Definitely. He doesn't have the Dmg output of his counterpart but he comes with some utterly irritating tricks to annoy your opponent, he is basically the Ying to Graves' Yang, he is a support piece and he does it well. Chatty is amazing as it prevents the enemys Interact actions with 6" of him. His ability to force the opponent to discard a card in order to cheat seriously puts some pressure on opponents. His Bored to Tears whilst only doing 1/2/3 Dmg also reduced Wk and Cg characteristics and he's Manipulative as well. He works well with the Dreamer and Pandora who tend to have a lot of Wp based shenanigans. He can even give the Dreamer a chance at summoning Teddy with his Leave it to Luck action! He's pretty solid for 6ss. 

[Mason]

Tannen's Bored to Tears debuff has proven to be incredibly annoying to my opponents, as has his Manipulative, his Chatty, his....

 

 

You know what, pretty much everything that Tannen does has proven annoying to my opponents.   

[Tiny]

After my games with Shenlong yesterday taking the pair the combo of bored to tears + sensei yu or shenlong's push back 5 inches is amazing for so many situations.

[DeleteAccount]

I just like Bored to tears for the no SS trigger, hit Von Schill with that and the Lone Swordsman did the rest. It's a very scary trigger for any soulstone user and a death sentence. Also, since Tannen has such a low profile, he can be a fantastic bodyguard.

[Shephammer]

That was some great reading on those Lynch crews, and on the changes made to accommodate Tannen.

 

Seeing as how this is in the 10T board, what models would you choose to add to this crew in a situation where you need some speedy schemers, and were playing 10t.

 

For example, a corner deployment squatter's rights.

[DeleteAccount]

Tengu are my scheme runners, cheap and get the job done. If I want something more mixed I go for Ten Thunder Brothers who are surprisingly mobile.

[Patzer]

I just like Bored to tears for the no SS trigger, hit Von Schill with that and the Lone Swordsman did the rest. It's a very scary trigger for any soulstone user and a death sentence.

 

That is a great combo!