Lilitu, lelu, and regeneration

[Kintaro]

Hey all,

so Lilitu's/Lelu's ability Regeneration says :

Regeneration +1 : When this model activates, it heals +1 damage.

And their ability Same oppressive/malignant force says :

When this model heals damage or gains a condition from a source other than the same oppressive/malignant force ability, any friendly Lilitu/Lelu heals the same amount of damage or gains the same condition unless it discards two cards.

so here's a situation we ran into tonight :

Lelu suffered 5 damage, and when turn was passed to opponent, she activated Lilitu, who used her Regen, sharing with Lelu. Lilitu was at full health. She then attempted to heal on Lelu.

The discussion that followed was that Lilitu "healed" one, so then so should Lelu.

However, the counter argument was that since she was at full health, she didn't heal anything (IE zero) (per the RB that says if you're at full health, any extra are discarded), so Lelu shouldn't have healed anything either (IE zero).

The Lilitu-controlling player then claims that she healed one - despite it being then discarded - so that Lelu gets the +1 heal "as well".

Can you guys help? Would Lelu get the heal? Seems to two of the three of us that she healed zero, so he'd also heal zero.

Also, can a Marshal weigh in here?

Thanks everyone!!

[Mastershake]

The question is whether the mechanic is smart or dumb.

Does Same oppressive/malignant force wait to see if damage is actually healed, or does it just apply the healing/conditions regardless of whether they actually do anything?

In a similar vein, if Lelu becomes paralyzed and you discard to prevent Lilitu from also becoming paralyzed what would happen if Lelu suffered another instance of the Paralyze condition before it activated? It can't be Paralyzed again, but it's still receiving the condition.

This is really a designer intent thing that's hard to answer since a mechanic like this is kind of non-existent elsewhere in the game and even parallels are hard to come by.

[heckler]

the sisters healing kind of parodies this.

[Mastershake]

the sisters healing kind of parodies this.

The Vics mechanic specifies healing flips only and I thought it specified somewhere that models at full health don't make healing flips, but I could be wrong on that one.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Mastershake

[Kintaro]

The question is whether the mechanic is smart or dumb.

Yep, that's exactly what I need to know : )

The Vics mechanic specifies healing flips only and I thought it specified somewhere that models at full health don't make healing flips, but I could be wrong on that one.

I don't know about flips, but the book does say if you're at full health it can't raise wounds above full, so they're discarded. My gaming experience tells me this means the "healed" amount is zero.

[The Godlyness]

on paralyze question it is a yes. the model gained the condition just because it does nothing does not mean it did not gain it.

other words if lelu was paralyzed and lilitu was not and lelu got paralyzed again a condition was put on him but since it is not a stacking one does nothing. but since he gained it regardless lilitu would have to discard cards, or become paralyzed.

[bcaswell]

In this kind of argument usually needs a marshal.

However FAQ when applies too damage says if you inflict 0 damage ie black joker or a zero on damage spread etc then when inflicting damage triggers don't work.

So seems like same logic would apply you cannot be damaged for zero so you cannot be healed for zero either.

[The Godlyness]

regen issue is simple in my mind.

How many wounds did lelu/lilitu heal when it activated. 0? do nothing 1+ heal lilitu/lelu same amount.

[Limelizard]

I see it as she heals one WD. It's above her max. Then she discards it.

[Kintaro]

So seems like same logic would apply you cannot be damaged for zero so you cannot be healed for zero either.

Correct, according to the FAQ, you are not considered to have taken damage if the damage is zero. I see it as the flip side of this conundrum, IE if you "heal" zero, how can the other do the same EXCEPT to "heal" zero?!?

And yeah, it's definitely a job for a marshal. I just realized I should have put this over in the rules forum. I'll repost it there.

regen issue is simple in my mind.

How many wounds did lelu/lilitu heal when it activated. 0? do nothing 1+ heal lilitu/lelu same amount.

So one heals zero and the other heals "same amount" of 1? That makes no sense.

I see it as she heals one WD. It's above her max. Then she discards it.

Oh no not YOU again? LOL!! J/K

All wounds above full are discarded...so she "healed" +0!

Ultimately I asked the players to flip, and the player controlling Lilitu won so we went with the heal. I disagree with it working that way, but that's how we mitigated the issue so they could get on with the game.

[The Godlyness]

I think you misread what I wrote. If they healed 0 do nothing. If they heald +1 heal the other.

[Sharp_GT]

This is already covered in your other thread under the Rules Discussion forums. Please keep it to only one thread:

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?51102-Lelu-and-Lilitu-s-Regen-ability

Through the magic of copy/paste!!!:

Regeneration +1: When this model Activates, it heals +1 damage.

So the model in question is healing when it activates, non-optional. So then look at the same ___ force ability:

Same Malignant/Oppressive Force: When this model heals damage or gains a Condition from a source other than the Same Oppressive/Malignant Force Ability, any friendly Lelu/Lilitu heals the same amount of damage or gains the same Condition unless it discards 2 cards.

So when one heals the other does as well, that makes sense pretty easily. Now to settle the matter of whether the activating model will heal at all if at full Wd check out Pg.53 of the Rules Manual (no idea of page in full size):

When an effect heals a model it increases the model’s current Wounds by the number indicated. Healing cannot raise a model’s current Wounds total above its starting Wounds Stat. Any excess healed Wounds are discarded.

So a model will heal the amount no matter what, excess Wounds are simply discarded. So Lelu activates, heals 1 increasing his Wounds from 8/8 to 8/8, and so Lilitu then gets to heal 1 increasing her Wounds from 5/7 to 6/7.

A model heals no matter what, the effect of healing is that you increase the model's Wd, if you cannot then the excess Wd are discarded.

[Sklertic]

I would play it as Lelu gets to heal a wound. That seems to me to be the intent behind the ability.

[Kintaro]

This is already covered in your other thread under the Rules Discussion forums. Please keep it to only one thread:

Posted here first, realized I should have posted there instead.

Thanks though!