How to counter Misaki base rush

[juggernaut]

Hello!

I have been playing puppet wars for two weeks now. At the beginning we played the suggested armies from the rule book, and on map no. 1 .

Seamos army ruled thous games because he did one trick the other guy had difficulaty to stop, rushing misaki first turn to the middle, and on the second turn rush her again and getting my starting base, finishing the game.

Any ways dealing with this tactic?

[juggernaut]

OK, is there no valid strategy?

[Doctor Lucky]

erm sorry, for unstitched or original. In the original you use the blocking rule. And don't leave your workbench.

For the new one, I haven't read the rules for a bit, but I am then assuming that you can't leave your master on the workbench?

[CowInAPie]

If I'm understanding correctly, how is that possible? I've played this game only once (And going to more this weekend), but activation round 1 you must move your Master, round 2 you both spawn a puppet (Assuming), then at max round 4 it's on your spot (If you left it empty and they went first). So you should leave your second puppet there and have your master to fight her. I would use my master to take a second spot and spawn from there to fend her off, leaving them with just their master and 2 spots, and you with a master, sidekick of your own, and 2 spots.

[juggernaut]

Thank you for the replys.

I'm talking about PWU.

@CowInAPie;

You start with your master ADJACENT to the starting workbench.

@Doctor Lucky;

The master can indeed stand on a workbench.

I see that the problem is not apperent, so I will explain.

It dosen't matter if the opposing master puppet start on the workbench or not.

first animation round:

The misaki player playes one of his high cards, getting misaki out and making her move on the central netural workbench.

The second player does whatever he wants, it dosen't matter. (he can basically get out a puppet and either leave it on the workbench or move it)

Second animation round:the Misaki player playes a very low card (2 if able, pokey victoria allows you to even play black jocker on this animation and guarantee you will be first), moves misaki on the opponents workbench and doing MINE!, game over.

If the workbench have a model, and misaki can't stand on it and do MINE!, you basically do MINE! action on the central netural workbench (the one you stand on) and move aside, keeping 3 spaces between misaki and the opponents' workbench, he will be unable to move the model from his workbench (because if he does, you will jump in with misaki the next turn and finish the game). Now he has one master that is free to roam and one model that is pinned to the workbench, while you can start popping puppets from the central workbench and do whatever you want.

Any solutions?

---------- Post added at 08:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:04 PM ----------

I will explain why this bothers me.

Basically, this is the best opening I can imagine, it gives you board control, forces your opponent to play a reactive game.

So what's the problem? both players will take her! The problem is that it degrades the game into "luck of the draw", and that is very problematic to a tactical miniatures game.

Edited December 26, 2013 by juggernaut

[Swan]

ok, starting with Seamus with Misaki vs Lady J.

Lady J Starts in Hex adjacent to Workbench, closest to center workbench

Summon Phae 1:

Seamus Summons Misaki, and moves to Center using Mine action and exhausting Misaki

Lady J Summons Puppet which stands on Work Bench.

Round 2:

If Lady J gets init

Lady J moves Adjacent to Misaki and attacks, hopefully causing 2 rips. If 2 rips are caused, Misaki is pinned, because activating will cause the 3rd rip and eliminate Misaki. This leaves Lady J able to summon additional puppets, just making sure that one stays on the workbench. She could also suffer a rip to eliminate Misaki.

If Seamus moves First, if he moves Misaki, she suffers a Rip, and Lady J can walk adjacent to Center Workbench, or move puppet guarding workbench depending where Misaki moves to.

In either case, Lady J controls the center of the board, with Misaki either retreating, being beat up by Lady J or pressing forward , and giving up the center workbench.

[juggernaut]

ok, starting with Seamus with Misaki vs Lady J.

Lady J Starts in Hex adjacent to Workbench, closest to center workbench

Summon Phae 1:

Seamus Summons Misaki, and moves to Center using Mine action and exhausting Misaki

Lady J Summons Puppet which stands on Work Bench.

Round 2:

If Lady J gets init

Lady J moves Adjacent to Misaki and attacks, hopefully causing 2 rips. If 2 rips are caused, Misaki is pinned, because activating will cause the 3rd rip and eliminate Misaki. This leaves Lady J able to summon additional puppets, just making sure that one stays on the workbench. She could also suffer a rip to eliminate Misaki.

If Seamus moves First, if he moves Misaki, she suffers a Rip, and Lady J can walk adjacent to Center Workbench, or move puppet guarding workbench depending where Misaki moves to.

In either case, Lady J controls the center of the board, with Misaki either retreating, being beat up by Lady J or pressing forward , and giving up the center workbench.

Just moving does not causes an exhaust token.

[Swan]

But using the Mine action does cause the puppet to exhaust - and once exhausted, activating, even only to move, causes a rip

[juggernaut]

Do not use MINE! on the middle workbench.

if he summons a puppet on his workbench on his first turn, and leave it there, that means that he has no way of getting into the middle bench on his next turn, so I just use MINE!on my next animation and moves within 3 spaces from his workbench. on his next turn he moves near the middle workbench (which is now mine) and I summon there a puppet to attack.

[CowInAPie]

Good response Swan, and yes, sorry, I forgot that your master can start off your workbench, and I also forgot she'd incur at least 1 rip moving towards you, and an extra one each time after that if she moves closer.

---Edit---

juggernaut, I don't see what the issue is if they're not taking the middle zone with Misaki. You have some puppet blocking your starting workbench from capture, while you may advance Lady Justice towards another bench to take or towards Misaki for an attack.

Edited December 26, 2013 by CowInAPie

[Swan]

ok, same setup, Misaki is standing on the Center Bench, Lady J Summons a Puppet onto her bench. Now Misaki has the choice of leaving the bench, Using Mine on the Bench and moving, or using Semus or Summon a puppet. Lady J can move 2 hexes, placing her 2 moves from the center or side workbench.

Play goes to third activation. Lady J will take a second workbench, giving her options and stopping Misaki's rush. Things can play out different depending on what Misaki's action was, in any case if Misaki took the middle base then she is taking rips to do anything else, if she hasn't Seamus still only controls 1 base.

Still not seeing how Lady J can lose this on the first round of activations.

[juggernaut]

try to do what I just wrote, if your opponent does not expect that, he will be dead in 1 minute.

Than, he will try to keep the puppet on the workbench, like you wrote, and he will die in 3 minutes because he cannot get new puppets out and has to deal with you with just his master against your entire army.

every choice you make to react to this move will place you in a worse position.

Your goal is not to take the middle zone, it is to take/threaten your opponents bench as quickly as possible.

Good response Swan, and yes, sorry, I forgot that your master can start off your workbench, and I also forgot she'd incur at least 1 rip moving towards you, and an extra one each time after that if she moves closer.

---Edit---

juggernaut, I don't see what the issue is if they're not taking the middle zone with Misaki. You have some puppet blocking your starting workbench from capture, while you may advance Lady Justice towards another bench to take or towards Misaki for an attack.

[CowInAPie]

Ok, so I've set up a vassal game of this, and I'm doing it turn by turn.

Turn 1: Misaki is spawned and moved to the centre, Lady J spawns Guild Austringer and attacks Misaki, who takes 1 rip. Guild Austringer is exhausted

Turn 1

Turn 2: Seamus spawns another puppet, /or/ moves Misaki away, who is in danger of Lady Justice's attack. If he spawns another puppet, Misaki is toast (Unless they dodge), give or take for cards. Lady Justice is exhausted but the threat is gone and taking a rip on the Austringer on turn 3 to move him off is worth it imho.

Turn 2

If Misake moves away, move Lady Justice towards the center anyways towards capturing the middle work bench, yes you'll be down, but in no means defeated.

[Swan]

Other option is that After Lady J moves between the two Work benches, Misaki can take one or leave, Lady J takes the second, which allows you to maneuver the puppet on the original work bench. If Misaki goes for that Workbench, then it will cost her a rip or the center workbench (since either she used Mine on that Bench or not). If she takes Lady J's original bench, then the puppet that was on that gets to attack her. Red still has 2 work benches, or a single workbench and Misaki either killed or near death. You would have to literally give the game to your opponent tio lose to Misaki in 1 or 3 minutes

[juggernaut]

i'm to trying to upload an image, it won't let me...

I am a highly competitive player, I always look for broken moves and combos in the games I play and take advantage of anything I can find. But this move is not fun, it really makes the game problematic.

now, to respond to your posts:

regarding the guild austringer attack on the first turn, you deliberately should play the highest card you can on the first round, so that you will act after anything your opponent might do

Now, picture this, first animation round, you play a high card, your opponent goes low. he gets to act first, he know you have misaki so he either summons a puppet and move it or leave it on the workbench. now as the misaki player, you have options.

If he moved the puppet from the workbench, summon misaki and go to the central bench, next round play a very low card (2 if possible), and win the game.

If he leaves the puppet he summoned on the workbench, you just made him lose a turn out of FEAR of what you MIGHT do. so you are able to summon anything with move 3 (a ronin, for example), and go for the workbench that is closer to lady J base (now, you are one turn away, she is two turns away). You always keep the misaki trick viable throughout the first turn. You always play a high value card to animate and react to your opponents move, and if he moves from the bench, you win. If he doesn't, you take control of the board with more puppets than he can summon (because he can't summon any) and win.

The solutions you have shown are all valid if the misaki player makes a mistake. I even have found one myself (place an executioner between the workbench and misaki, he gets two attacks at her if she tries to get past him, but it forces you to take an executioner as one of your puppets and hope for the right card to play him on the first turn) but its really an uphill battle.

I'll be happy to play any of you in vassal, I don't think you fully realize how powerful this is.

[Swan]

I grant you that you have found the "Fool's mate" of Malifaux, but this is not an all win situation, and it depends a lot on what is in your hand. If you know the opponent has Misaki, whats to stop you from playing a high card forcing the Misaki player to go first?

How do you win once you opponent has their second work bench? How do you guarantee that you will always have a high card to play to react to your opponent? Yes Misaki is good, but she should be for a side kick. And there is another simple solution, change up the map you are playing on. Play on map #4 for a while and see how that one works out.

As you have stated, you, CowInAPie and myself have all shown solutions to the problem, and in my case this was done without looking at any of the possible puppets out there.

And looking at the puppets, what stops the Hooded Rider from completely Shredding Misaki?

Pokey Victoria would be a solid counter to Misaki, Pokey with Misaki becomes more of a problem. Looking at the new models, the Piglet makes for an interesting solution to the problem. I am sure as I look through more, other solutions will come up.

Edited December 27, 2013 by Swan

[Doctor Lucky]

I'll be happy to play any of you in vassal, I don't think you fully realize how powerful this is.

Challenge Accepted! I have a big test next week, after that I'll need to learn how Vassal works and then I would love to play some games with you. I prefer the old rules but I probably should learn to like the new ones.

[juggernaut]

I don't know the old rules...

I'll be happy to get some games regardless, seems like a good platform to meet more players. Right now i'm the only player in my country...

[Csonti]

I just played my first Unstiched game yesterday so I'm not an expert but I really can't see the point of this "trick".

Flipping through the avalaible map setups in the rulebook all of the 6 variants has at least 2 neutral benches within 4 hexes of any starting workbench. So the non-Misaki player has always the option to activate a puppet with 3 movement to walk and occupy another bench. -> Fools' Mate got mated in move 1.

The only problematical setup is Map2 where the two workbenches are too close to each other. But you can just agree with your opponent not to play on that board or play with only non-leaping models. I see this problem more as a wrong board design than a broken Misaki.

Am I right or maybe I missed something?

Edited December 30, 2013 by Csonti

[juggernaut]

I just played my first Unstiched game yesterday so I'm not an expert but I really can't see the point of this "trick".

Flipping through the avalaible map setups in the rulebook all of the 6 variants has at least 2 neutral benches within 4 hexes of any starting workbench. So the non-Misaki player has always the option to activate a puppet with 3 movement to walk and occupy another bench. -> Fools' Mate got mated in move 1.

The only problematical setup is Map2 where the two workbenches are too close to each other. But you can just agree with your opponent not to play on that board or play with only non-leaping models. I see this problem more as a wrong board design than a broken Misaki.

Am I right or maybe I missed something?

you don't have 2 turns to reach to the other workbench, because the turns are simultaneous and misaki has animation cost of 2, she will act before you can, and the rules state that if a player has no workbenches, he loses immediately, you don't get to activate your puppet to get the other bench.

Edited December 30, 2013 by juggernaut

[Csonti]

Oh... the Master can start beside a bench thing messed in my head with normal puppet activation.

[ThePandaDirector]

I might not be the best player in the world, I'm not even that competetive, but I would certainly describe myself as a veteran of Puppet Wars (original and Unstitched). The below is of course just my opinion.

Firstly, in any game there is the chance of achieving a Fool's Mate, but that is more to do with the disparity between players than their forces.

Secondly, Puppet Wars' principle concerning balance has always been "balance through imbalance". It's a brutal game that has lots of nasty, brutal tricks that help the game self-balance. You'll come across a few of these (though not necesarily limited to the early stages of the game), but for each one there are multiple counters based on whatever you have at your disposal. I'll concede that the game can have a slightly steeper learning curve for some people, but suffering sudden, brutal defeats is something we all get to enjoy sooner or later =]

In regards to activation, there are a few things to note. First you have to get a high card in your hand, which may be your only high card (and you'll have to cycle through the whole deck to get it again). Then there's the chance the opponent plays a card that is equal or higher. Remember that if the cards are equal then initiative is determined randomly and not by the Puppets' Activation Requirement. So straight off the bat you are taking a gamble that could leave you vulnerable to counter-attack. Of course your opponent won't know for sure how vulnerable you are, but that's all part of the fun =]

So let's just say that you have Misaki and I have to animate first. Here are all the options I have:

• Animate an Austringer, later I can give it Powerful +1 with Lady Justice and attack Misaki at range 3.
  
• Death Marshal, same as Austringer only Range 2.
  
• Executioner, can just keep him adjacent to the workbench in a position that forces you to move into an adjacent space with him to get to my workbench. This way I can animate more puppets and have a way to react to Misaki while also deterring her from causing a rip to herself (since Executioner will then tear her apart in one hit).
  
• Punk Zombie, same as Austringer and Death Marshal only range 1, but has the added bonus of being able to counter attack Misaki.
  
• December Acolyte, if I have the cards, I can do Filled with Needles to inflict 2 automatic rips, again making Misaki unable to activate again, and leaving my workbench unoccupied for me to deploy another puppet (Austringer).
  
• Razorspine Rattler, Range 2 Paralyze aught to keep Misaki in her place, allowing me to do my thing without having to worry about her till the next turn.
  
• Convict Gunslinger, Puppet Roulette is fun regardless of the outcome =]
  
• Now if I had the luck of going second I could animate Silurid or Ronin to try and get to a workbench before Misaki. Silurid is fun because of its high defense, so that high card played at the start of the game could bite the Misaki player on the pin cuishon

You might point out most of these options don't actually get rid of Misaki, but that's not the objective. All I need to do is neutralise her in whatever way fits my purposes, such as freeing up my workbench so I can animate puppets and avoid being overwhelmed. If I just focus on her, then I'm merely allowing my opponent to pull off other nasty, brutal tricks. If Misaki is Parayzed, Confused, Stuck, reduced to one stitich, then she is no longer a threat until turn 2, by which point I have other puppets out to play as aggressively/defensively as I desire.

And remember, the above are all pawns, just to show you don't need Sidekick B to counter Sidekick A. If I was to use a Sidekick, Bete Noire could do Sense Stuffing since Misaki will have an Exhausted Token (if the space between Workbenches is 5 spaces). Hooded Rider is an obvious counter, though is as reliant of the high card as Misaki. Rusty Alyce is also a relatively safe bet, though maybe better a second/third activation as she'd likely be camping on workbench waiting for Misaki and you'll want to get as many puppets out as possible.

The main problem with these sort of things is they focus on a couple of factors and ignore the rest of the game, like what other puppets are being animated by the Misaki player as well as the layout of the board.

That last point is of course the key one. If Misaki is such an issue, move the starting workbenches further apart. Plus not every game has to have a centre workbench; I myself like to have a workbench on each flank where one is more accessible to one player than the other. Making it easier or harder to get those extra workbenches should help mix things up.

On top of all that, there is also drafting to consider. If you draft, then you'll be able to pick the puppets you feel work best against Misaki and whatever else the opponent takes, or you can focus more on denying your opponent of the puppets they need. If you feel their is a combo that is too effective, swap forces and see how player skill comes into the equation. Worst case scenario you just take Misaki out of circulation, or just house rule.

One more thing! Upgrades

[juggernaut]

Panda, thank you for your reply, this is preety much what I was looking to get.

Most of your solutions don't account to misaki being 3 spaces away from your starting workbench and not exhausted, but from this entire thread I got the feeling that the misaki rush can be sorted out.

I tried to house rule that you only lose the game if at the end of your turn you don't control any worbenches, but I feel that starting to house rule stuff after playing the game for less than a month is an absurd idea. I don't want to remove misaki from the equation either, as she is an integral part of the game and we should learn to deal with her.

Oh, and this thread achieved another goal, it reanimated the forum :-)

If this forum is so inactive, are there any other active puppet wars forums?

[ThePandaDirector]

No problem, I've been absent from these forums for awhile and this gave me the chance to write a wall'o'text like the days of old =P

Your point is true, as most of my solutions would require a puppet to suffer a rip to reanimate, or in the case of the Acolyte, sacrificing it altogether. But most of them are designed to counter Misaki after she has made her move. Naturally the preference is to free up your workbench so your not being pinned to it out of fear.

And thank you for reanimating the forum =] As far as I'm aware this is the only place to discuss Puppet Wars. I know everyone's been focussing on M2E (and I've been distracted by Arena Rex), but hopefully we can get start getting some wave 2 playtesting done and share our feedback here. Also feel free to share any other combos/tactics you can think of.