Dissappointed in Wyrd. FAQ

[Mentat_Canis]

Couldn't think of a witty title but isn't anyone else disappointed at wyrd for having to release an FAQ with errata in it a week after the book came out. This is so fast it is basically saying that they rushed this way to fast and didn't give it enough time for development.

I do have to say that if I was an Ophelia player I would be wanting my money back or filing a complaint with the better business borough in Georgia for fraud of a product. 2 upgrades that you can no longer use your nice printed card stock for and instead just having a printed copy on paper.

I am dissapointed in the need for this so quickly and hopefully they learn from their mistakes and actually give wave 2 a long enough test period, it is just feeling like 1e again where you need to have a lot of FAQ all the time to know how to play.

[Boshea]

So would you prefer to complain about how things got fixed, how things are not getting fixed, or how stuff isn't getting released?

[RagingRodian]

I am an Ophelia player, and I am not feeling a need to ask for my money back or file any claims. I do think that the cuddles were a bit much, but then again I haven't been relying heavily on the guns up until now so it shouldn't really throw off my game.

The book was also starting to get into people's hands in mid August. It is more realistic to say that the FAQ came out after 2 1/2 months of people using the finalized rules, comparatively speaking that's not too bad.

Nobody makes anyone buy the cards, you can just play the game with a piece of scratch paper and your book. I am pretty sure that an updated version of the upgrades will be in the box whenever Wyrd gets around to making a new boxed set for them.

[AverageBoss]

First its bureau no borough.

Second, it has been a month since release, not a week. At least we didn't need day 1 errata in order to play the game like some recent GW 40K books.

Third, mistakes happen. Wyrd actually fixed them. They are the only company I know of that will actually rebalance things after an official release. This is a GOOD thing. Using GW again, on the Fantasy side you wait 9+ months for an FAQ and then they still don't answer the questions at hand. In the case of something that works too well or not at all, you have to wait 7 years for the next printing of the book.

Lastly, this is why they have public betas. This way a larger amount of people are exposed to the game and problems can be found much easier. It appears a few slipped through the cracks, but at the end of the day it was just a few.

I say thanks Wyrd for the expedient FAQ. And thanks for giving us an exact time frame on the next one.

[Mentat_Canis]

So would you prefer to complain about how things got fixed, how things are not getting fixed, or how stuff isn't getting released?

I would have preferred people complain about not getting released because they continued to make it a more balanced game. I thought it was rushed to get it to Gencon and so did many other people and this FAQ does prove they rushed it and made mistakes. I hope they learn from them and this 2nd wave has a longer more complete playtest.

I am also not saying that this FAQ wasn't needed I am saying that I am disappointed that this was needed so quickly and it smells just like what everyone complained at the end of 1e where people needed to have the FAQ their to play because what was printed was wrong.

[RagingRodian]

Looking at GW and looking at Wyrd is like night and day for game balance and fixing issues. Unlike GW, Wyrd favors a balanced and clearly written game, rather than an unbalanced one used to drive miniatures sales. Looking at the faq/erratas for both companies, Wyrd's is mostly clarifications. Many of GW's are a train wreck.

[Mentat_Canis]

Looking at GW and looking at Wyrd is like night and day for game balance and fixing issues. Unlike GW, Wyrd favors a balanced and clearly written game, rather than an unbalanced one used to drive miniatures sales. Looking at the faq/erratas for both companies, Wyrd's is mostly clarifications. Many of GW's are a train wreck.

I agree which is why since 2010 I have been playing Malifaux and Warmachine instead of 40k. I am just trying to put out my point of view that I think that needing the Errata this quickly is a bad sign. If you need to clarify some things that are already stated in the rulebook sure but errata is a bad sign.

[Bruglyother]

I agree which is why since 2010 I have been playing Malifaux and Warmachine instead of 40k. I am just trying to put out my point of view that I think that needing the Errata this quickly is a bad sign. If you need to clarify some things that are already stated in the rulebook sure but errata is a bad sign.

How do you figure. No matter how much time they gave the testing, things slip through the cracks. I see 1 rule errata from the book, and it was an error in that all of the testers "knew" that you could only take one (0) action per turn, so the error was easily missed. It has now been found and fixed. As for the cards, there are 6 cards addressed. One of them was a straight up typo (Barbaros). So that goes to 5. Nexus of power was considered strong before, but most people didn't realize exactly how bad until Nekima hit playtest. Diestro was one I didn;t see people commenting on until after release either. These things happen. Nothing is ever perfect, and no amount of testing or holding off will change that. So, with that in mind, I am much happier with Wyrd owning up to their errors, and addressing them quickly.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I also I agree. From a PR perspective it might not broadcast surety that errata got released this early, I'm glad that it did, and that they have a definite schedule for updates. Especially as we are in wave 2 play test, there were some items that might have skewed the design of upcoming models if they were left unchanged.

[rgarbonzo]

Just some minor clarifications here as to why there was errata released for models at least in my opinion...

Barbaros was a typo as has been stated.

Nexus was powerful, however this was before Huggy D was made a henchman and Nekima. I would much rather see an errata to an upgrade that was commented on and also the issues were discussed shortly after GenCon, not to mention at GenCon. At least some players were discussing it and why it should be changed rather than change models.

Diestro I don't think anyone actually used on Perdita. It was an oversight that made her not only one of the best ranged masters in the game but also the best melee model as well. I don't think that was intended and it was something that no one realized until after the book was printed. At least in the open beta I don't remember anyone who used Diestro on Perdita, it was almost always on Francisco.

Ophelia's upgrades changing was something that was not in the open beta and was quite a surprise when the book was released at GenCon. These upgrades were talked about there as well among at least some of the player base. Now I don't know how much was a clarification and how much was a cuddle since these upgrades did not get tested in the open beta.

With all that said, am I disappointed in Wyrd for changing Diestro, Nexus and 2 of Ophelia's upgrades? Not really since I was still a big proponent of changing Nexus and Decaying Aura in the open beta. I actually wrote several posts defending the design decision on Ophelia's upgrades however playing a game to purposely abuse the Threatnin Gun and you would see exactly how ridiculous it was. I'm good with the changes for the overall state of the game. I would much rather have the Wyrd crew release errata and FAQs in a timely manner rather than waiting for 12+ months to fix models as had happened with Hamelin and Dreamer.

[Ausplosions]

So you are disappointed that Wyrd made the game more balanced with some minor tweak?

Odd.

[dgraz]

Wow.

[Iron Heel]

Wyrd recently put out a rule book. The players rapidly pointed out a few issues. Wyrd agreed and made a couple changes.

Would I have rather that this occur before the book went to print? Sure. But that is a moot point now; I am just glad that they fixed the stuff.

If I am miffed about anything, it is that we won't see a single gremlin until after Jan...and who knows how far after Jan!

[Mike3838]

I would have preferred people complain about not getting released because they continued to make it a more balanced game. I thought it was rushed to get it to Gencon and so did many other people and this FAQ does prove they rushed it and made mistakes. I hope they learn from them and this 2nd wave has a longer more complete playtest.

I am also not saying that this FAQ wasn't needed I am saying that I am disappointed that this was needed so quickly and it smells just like what everyone complained at the end of 1e where people needed to have the FAQ their to play because what was printed was wrong.

Given that this errata changed about 0.01% of the book's contents - you're saying that you'd be willing to wait an extra 2 months (and force a wait of an extra two months on everybody else too), just to get that 0.01% fixed before release?

You have to admit that's an over-the-top level of perfectionism, I'm sorry.

Your concerns about official cards vs printouts are kinda moot anyway, given that the updated cards are being included in the Wave 2 decks.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Mike3838

[Pierowmaniac]

Don't completely agree with the OP, however he does make some valid observations and ones hopefully that can be learned from.

Wouldnt it be really cool if Wyrd bumped that 0.01% errata to 0% on wave 2

[keroro623]

quick FAQ is a good thing

[Rob Lo]

Rather than go after the obvious target (*cough*GW) that I don't think anyone would argue does a good job of either getting a perfect product out the door, or updating/fixing the mistakes once they're out there, I compare this kind of thing to another arena of living/changing games that maybe many of us have some experience with, computer games (RPGs, MMOs, RTS, etc.). You can pick anything; even cars have recalls, but I know a fair bit more about games than cars.

Run down the list of any of the titles that come to mind when playing a computer game (Skyrim, Starcraft, Bioshock, WoW come to mind for me), imagine any of those games without patches. Can you do it? Sure, they work well enough obviously, or they wouldn’t have gone out the door. Once you run across a bug, or someone points one out to you, which do you choose? Sit there shocked that a company would put out a bugged product? Demand your money back? Toss the game in the trash? Go grab the patch and keep playing? Sit there stoically ignoring the patch and keep playing the bugged version?

Nothing gets put out the door perfectly, from Wyrd to Blizzard to Toyota to Subway (not enough mayo, too much onion; would not recommend). Now, when that imperfection affects you it’s going to sting and no one’s going to like it right up front, but is it better in the end? Well, that depends on who is putting out the change. Do you trust Wyrd to put out a decent change that keeps things on a good track? From what I've seen so far, yeah, I do. (Subway not so much.)

Do you want to play a couple games where your (in Wyrd’s eyes) broken/imbalanced mechanic means you’re going to have an advantage and your opponent gets tired of it real quick before finding something else to do, or have a more balanced game that people keep wanting to come back to, week after week?

[Dracomax]

Not to mention that even before Beta started, Wyrd committed to releasing an update FAQ/Eratta every two months, on a schedule, to deal with issues that come up in play. This was, and is seen as a good thing, because it means that issues don't go unfixed for years on end.

So, yeah, there were going to be some Errata over 2 months after people had it from Gencon, and almost 2 months after general release. It was on the schedule, and quite frankly, mistakes get made.

[Evilbleachman]

I can understand where the OP is coming from. TBH I am not too pleased with the errata. Though I am also of the opinion they should have waited one more year to release the second edition, allowing for more time to prevent such needs.

Then again the second edition, despite the quick (and thank Wyrd they exist even) erratas is so damn good I cannot be mad at them for trying to make it better. Justin also said the Errata'd cards would be released in the second wave arsenal packs. So no harm done with the cards 'missing'.

[Claymore65]

I'm okay with it. Quick FAQ is better than no FAQ or balance updates. You do make a valid point that we should strive to make it perfectly balanced out of the book itself. We should work hard in this beta to get as much as we can ironed out. I don't honestly think, especially with so many models, that we can make everything perfectly balanced so FAQs/Errata will still be required, but I hope we will still have this quick response time in the future.

[Forar]

Wow.

Man, building up "thanks" has never been easier...

Edit: to address the topic at hand; as much as we might like things to be perfect right out of the gate, that's unrealistic. The important thing is that hopefully all of the game breaking (or strictly overpowered) pieces and mechanics/combinations have been caught. Fixing up a few odds and ends will always happen, and quickly addressing some stuff early isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially for this complicated a game/system.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Forar

[Dracomax]

Yes, we should strive for the best balance/proofreading before releasing the book/models that we possibly can, keeping in mind release dates.

However, with a system this complex, it is unreasonable to expect it to be perfect. If chess were released today, it would get errata. Given that, I would rather they have consistent and regular updates than 6 months to a year between, with no idea what is being looked at, even after models with problems come to light.

[ork56]

I am not sure Subway are a good analogy, if your sub isn't right, it's your own fault because you picked it?

Anyway, the most important issue in the OP and one which has been assiduously skipped by the fanboys, is the speed at which wave 2 beta->publication appears to be travelling. I and others in my gaming group are not convinced that all the wave 2 minis (which if I understand correctly is everything else that had been released for 1e) can be successfully balanced in a couple of months.

The number of queries on this forum regarding rules interactions far outweigh the small number which found their way into the FAQ/errata. Given the multitude of further interactions with the increased number of minis when wave 2 hits, we only see the situation getting worse/more complicated.

Hopefully a little more time will be allocated than currently planned as I am sure we can be patient for an extra couple of months?

[Dracomax]

I am not sure Subway are a good analogy, if your sub isn't right, it's your own fault because you picked it?

Anyway, the most important issue in the OP and one which has been assiduously skipped by the fanboys, is the speed at which wave 2 beta->publication appears to be travelling. I and others in my gaming group are not convinced that all the wave 2 minis (which if I understand correctly is everything else that had been released for 1e) can be successfully balanced in a couple of months.

The number of queries on this forum regarding rules interactions far outweigh the small number which found their way into the FAQ/errata. Given the multitude of further interactions with the increased number of minis when wave 2 hits, we only see the situation getting worse/more complicated.

Hopefully a little more time will be allocated than currently planned as I am sure we can be patient for an extra couple of months?

Well, the rules questions have always far outnumbered the things dealt with in Errata and FAQ, or even those rules dealt with by rules Martial—which were almost impossible to find unless you had them bookmarked.

If you have issues with the public beta going by too fast, that's one thing. I think you may be missing that M2E has been in private testing for over a year, but it's your opinion. you are entitled to it. I still think it's likely more than some of the bigger companies give for play testing.

That being said, I don't appreciate being called a fanboy for pointing out that WYRD are doing exactly what they said they were going to do before the public beta's even began. Honestly, I'd personally prefer their quick errata cycle to what M1E had, or what I see out of other companies. I don't want to see Ophelia get thrown to the side because nobody wants to play against her, for instance. Having a fix that makes her a choice that isn't borderline abusive this soon? that's so awesome that I literally can't explain how grateful I am.

[Mako]

Let's avoid any language like fanboy, or hater, or other... charged words like that if we can, please folks. It just gets peoples backs up and that ruins discussions.

I think it's a shame that a few errata were needed, but it was almost guaranteed to happen. I found a mistake in my thesis after I got it bound and I'd spent two years writing it, with four people checking it for mistakes, then external examiners going over it with a critical eye (and that's pretty much normal, in fact the advice I got was don't read it, you'll find the mistake). They really can't be avoided no matter what, what's more important is to make them right efficiently and sensibly. Hence the bimonthly schedule for the FAQ/errata.

Wave two as far as I remember was said to have a more flexible end date back when it began, if Wyrd feel its not ready, or something isn't balanced, they can probably stretch the time out a bit.