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How to loose friends


hypoking

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Honestly, any errata we see in November(I think that's when they were planning it for) will probably be "there was a misprint," "we missed it in editing, but there should be an extra sentence here." or "General rule needs an extra proviso to prevent people from doing something uninteded"

The FAQ will probably be more robust.

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In my limited experience Pandora's been a gimmie match. Once you give Ophelia stubborn there's not a whole hell of alot they can do to stop you from rampaging through their crew.

I quite agree as of mk2. I'm referring back to mk1, where Pandora was much worse (for opponents) and Ophelia's entire crew had Wp 4. Certainly not now. But yeah, I'll agree with you on the Lenny setup. I just think that Lenny is better off hanging out with Raphael since he's nearly immortal with auto dumb luck. Everyone gets better with Lenny, but Ophelia doesn't really need the help.

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I guess it could easily be fixed by:

1) Making the attack on My threatening gun "Discard after use".

2) Making the (0) Actions on Jug Rocket and My Threaening gun only affect "Other friendly Kin".

Isn't there an errata coming up soon? Bet they'll be fixed then.

Why make Threatening Gun discard after shooting? If you play a Ram it actually does less damage than the Rough Riders and doesn't get a bonus to hit. Even the Young Lacroix guns have the potential for more damage.

True, Ophelia can get a reloadable hillbilly teleport. She still only gets only one zero action though. Assuming she has room to take the upgrade (which competes with Dirty Cheater, Threatening Gun, Liquid Bravery if you are fighting WP attackers, Stilts if you are worried about melee or getting Devoured....) she is still using the teleport in place of another valuable zero action.

She isn't using Ooo A Girl to pull a down range model into position

She isn't using With My Eyes Closed! to take positive flips on shooting

She isn't using Liquid Bravery to make the rest of her crew resistant to WP attacks

She isn't using the Threatening Gun to make a nearby model take another action.

Ophelia can't win games alone, and other Masters have equally nasty combos. She is a gunfighter who does damage, she should do a lot of damage when it is her turn. The thing is, that lack of subtlety makes her look more powerful than she is at first glance.

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Why make Threatening Gun discard after shooting? If you play a Ram it actually does less damage than the Rough Riders and doesn't get a bonus to hit. Even the Young Lacroix guns have the potential for more damage.

True, Ophelia can get a reloadable hillbilly teleport. She still only gets only one zero action though. Assuming she has room to take the upgrade (which competes with Dirty Cheater, Threatening Gun, Liquid Bravery if you are fighting WP attackers, Stilts if you are worried about melee or getting Devoured....) she is still using the teleport in place of another valuable zero action.

She isn't using Ooo A Girl to pull a down range model into position

She isn't using With My Eyes Closed! to take positive flips on shooting

She isn't using Liquid Bravery to make the rest of her crew resistant to WP attacks

She isn't using the Threatening Gun to make a nearby model take another action.

Ophelia can't win games alone, and other Masters have equally nasty combos. She is a gunfighter who does damage, she should do a lot of damage when it is her turn. The thing is, that lack of subtlety makes her look more powerful than she is at first glance.

Lenny with Rough Riders is already in many situations better than threatening gun. If it was discarded after use then it would have pretty much no reason to be used over the rough riders which have a better chance to hit and do more damage (if you have a ram, soul stone or Lenny). They would have to make Threatening gun better than it currently is to make it worth taking if it's discarded after each use IMHO, I would just be killing models with rough riders rather than hoping they fail the duel and become paralysed.

And you're right about other masters having plenty of nasty combos, Perdita with Diestro is far more broken than anything Ophelia can do.

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You people really are taking very lightly a Tn 13 horror bomb crater. Just for that it should be discardable, that the young Lacroux can also just spam it like no tomorrow since it can never be discarded should be the other big reason for it to be able to be discarded.

Activate Ophelia late, take 2-3 well placed shots and you can make all the enemy crew have to test, every single paralize you get out of it is HUGE.

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You people really are taking very lightly a Tn 13 horror bomb crater.

A crater that can be avoided by standing 3.1" away...yup, I'm taking it pretty lightly so far.

Now there's already been some M2E tournaments, how many where Ophelia was taken has she won? It's too early to start swinging the cuddle bat, the wave 1 masters haven't been mastered yet, we're less than 4 hours from the 2nd wave where every masters options are going to increase exponentially. If it proves Ophelia is OP, then she can be brought back in line.

Has anyone tried playing Ophelia with Threaenin' Gun as it must be discarded and the 8" teleport not effecting her? Might be worth a try to see if she feels under powered like that.

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You people really are taking very lightly a Tn 13 horror bomb crater. Just for that it should be discardable, that the young Lacroux can also just spam it like no tomorrow since it can never be discarded should be the other big reason for it to be able to be discarded.

Activate Ophelia late, take 2-3 well placed shots and you can make all the enemy crew have to test, every single paralize you get out of it is HUGE.

If your entire crew are being hit then I think the issue isn't with Ophelia being OP, but rather your crew placement.

And you have the choice between making them take the test, or getting a positive flip to cheat and more damage. Threatening gun is good, absolutely, but it isn't exactly better than her other guns especially rough riders. I would rather have a model dead than paralysed generally.

Maybe threatening gun is OP, it'll take a lot more testing before I make a decision on that. But it certainly isn't obviously better than rough riders. Or Perdita with diestro.

Edited by Manic Mouse
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A crater that can be avoided by standing 3.1" away...yup, I'm taking it pretty lightly so far.

Must be awesome playing on empty tables and never having any buff auras, pulses or support effects!

And yes, for pure offense, the rough riders will usually net you the same result, but a 4th AP just cause is huge (Certainly a lot more than what the upgrade costs) and getting a good shot going can cause a lot of Mayhem, and again, all our young Lacroix can use it, constantly.

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Maybe threatening gun is OP, it'll take a lot more testing before I make a decision on that. But it certainly isn't obviously better than rough riders. Or Perdita with diestro.

Diestro doesn't give you an 8" teleport. It makes Perdita deal damage extremely reliably when the enemies are 12" closer to her than her max range. As long as Ophelia can teleport herself with the Threatening Gun it's just straight up better than Diestro on Perdita.

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Diestro doesn't give you an 8" teleport. It makes Perdita deal damage extremely reliably when the enemies are 12" closer to her than her max range. As long as Ophelia can teleport herself with the Threatening Gun it's just straight up better than Diestro on Perdita.

Giving opponents -ve flip to defence against what is effectively Ml7 is insane, remember that means they take the lowest card and can't cheat how is that not amazing?! Also if they manage to survive that they will get shot to bits by the rest of the crew. Oh and in melee Perdita gets her critical strike trigger so add at least 1 to her damage track (ie: 3/5/6 - pretty close to threatening gun but far more likely to hit and do higher damage). If you have a ram in your hand and a soul stone you can add 3 damage to her spread (making it 5/7/8). The only things that have a chance of surviving against her are soul stone users who have to spend souls just to get on an even footing and be able to cheat.

Diestro on Perdita is insane. She was already an incredibly strong ranged master, but with Diestro she is the strongest melee master in the game. Oh and she can ignore armour, incorporeal etc if you thought they would save you. I don't think a single model in the game can go toe-to-toe with Perdita and Diestro in melee. And this is a ranged master.

There is absolutely no way threatening gun is better than Diestro. Not even close. Combined with Papa loco and Franciso she can also be Df9, Wp9 for going into theses fights with a +ve flip on damage. She is insanely powerful. And as for the teleport, you have seen the number of movement shenanigans the Ortegas can pull right?

I love how people are spinning the facts like leaving out that Ophelia's extra AP gets a -ve flip, or that the "massive caters that paralyse your entire crew" are actually a 3" pulse, most models have a 50% chance of succeeding against anyway. And that Diestro only allows perdita to reliably do damage at closer than her max range. Really guys, that stuff is all pure spin. If threatening gun really is OP then let's decide that based on reliable information. Let's see how many tournaments she runs away with, rather than anecdote.

Edited by Manic Mouse
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Start focusing on VP instead of just killing stuff. Teleporting 8" will give you more VP than killing stuff in most schemes/strategies. And you can win a game with your entire crew dead.

Except when you teleport you can't take interact actions for the rest of the turn. So actually if you want VP it's probably the last thing you want to do.

But again, people are conveniently leaving that fact out of their arguments.

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Diestro on Perdita is insane.

I would have to agree. I'm surprised it wasn't caught during open PT. As a Perdita player, I never even realized I could put it on Perdita (always had it on Francisco) until someone finally mentioned it right at the very end of open. If I had, I would have lobbied against it.

As far as her being Df/Wp 9.....she isn't immune to blasts and such and she has a low Wd stat. The defensive and offensive buffs also require quite a bit of set-up.

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You people really are taking very lightly a Tn 13 horror bomb crater. Just for that it should be discardable, that the young Lacroux can also just spam it like no tomorrow since it can never be discarded should be the other big reason for it to be able to be discarded.

Activate Ophelia late, take 2-3 well placed shots and you can make all the enemy crew have to test, every single paralize you get out of it is HUGE.

Its not only the paralyzed every success on that is likely a 7+out of your deck that you wouldn't have had to waste on what amounts to a free flip. Those are cards the opponent now doesn't have attack or other models defense. again much less a comment either way on the ability. But more on the general utility of what this type of ability allows and does.

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I don't understand the comparison of the movement of Perdita vs Ophelia. Perdiat can get pushes of "up to" and "towards". Ophelia gets a literal teleport. Which ignores EVERYTHING. I've personally seen it on a map where there was a mix of multi level terrain, indoor and outdoor and enclosed. There is nothing to stop her. She went from the 3 level of a building to straight to the bottom floor in base to base with my master and fired 3 times. Next turn fire 3 more times then teleport back up to the roof. What kind of balance does anyone imagine that is right in?

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I don't understand the comparison of the movement of Perdita vs Ophelia. Perdiat can get pushes of "up to" and "towards". Ophelia gets a literal teleport. Which ignores EVERYTHING. I've personally seen it on a map where there was a mix of multi level terrain, indoor and outdoor and enclosed. There is nothing to stop her. She went from the 3 level of a building to straight to the bottom floor in base to base with my master and fired 3 times. Next turn fire 3 more times then teleport back up to the roof. What kind of balance does anyone imagine that is right in?

Things generally get really funky when height is introduced to Malifaux...

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Height is quite well laid out. It is the fact that "placed" effect is a very vague thing and doesn't have any limitations. And that is what the upgrade does. I don't mind her doing to a friendly kin, though it still make no sense. I'd say downgrade the ability some and just make it a push. Being placed is I think one of the biggest issues in that.

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Except when you teleport you can't take interact actions for the rest of the turn. So actually if you want VP it's probably the last thing you want to do.

But again, people are conveniently leaving that fact out of their arguments.

Interact first, then teleport to where you plan to interact next turn.

It does give your opponent some chance to react and forces you to think ahead, but gives you great mobility which is pretty powerful for many schemes.

(Note: I'm not arguing either way on the balance of the teleport)

ps (side note) How is Teleport not a dictionary word. WTF firefox...

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Interact first, then teleport to where you plan to interact next turn.

It does give your opponent some chance to react and forces you to think ahead, but gives you great mobility which is pretty powerful for many schemes.

(Note: I'm not arguing either way on the balance of the teleport)

ps (side note) How is Teleport not a dictionary word. WTF firefox...

OMG I had the same problem.. I was like.. wait.. I know ... I think.. I'm spelling that right.

And frankly there is also the consideration your talking about 1 model not being able to interact. And frankly, the way she is setup, she shouldn't be. She should be wrecking face and let everyone else worry about schemes.

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For interact actions you want the threatening gun. Cause well, 4ap and speed 6 makes dropping tokens delightfully trivial. For just standing in the right place, like with entourage, outflank, and such, that's what you want the jug rocket for.

She should be wrecking face and let everyone else worry about schemes.

Why choose? Ophelia can multitask and do it damn well. So can the rest of the kin, with the possible exception of Rami. The crew has enough flexibility that all the dedication you need to set up a head of time is deciding whose patrolling the flank in a game. Not that foresight doesn't help any but everything else can be done on the fly to good effect.

Edited by hypoking
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Ophelia does not just have 4AP, that is misrepresenting things a bit. She can take an upgrade that lets her trade her zero action for a (1) action that has a negative flip for duels. There is a difference.

Ophelia can lay down scheme markers, but the rest of her crew is still better for it. Ophelia is both the heavy hitter in the crew and the shepherd for up to three Young LaCroix- models who see their usefulness plummet if Ophelia keeps using lots of action points to move around the table. To maximize the firepower from Ophelia and her totems you need to keep them all relatively close and move at a slower pace, otherwise the Young go from nasty gun fighting sidekicks to corpse markers.

---------- Post added at 07:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:53 PM ----------

You people really are taking very lightly a Tn 13 horror bomb crater. Just for that it should be discardable, that the young Lacroux can also just spam it like no tomorrow since it can never be discarded should be the other big reason for it to be able to be discarded.

Activate Ophelia late, take 2-3 well placed shots and you can make all the enemy crew have to test, every single paralize you get out of it is HUGE.

I am also taking it lightly simply because in three games of using the gun extensively the Horror effect has done nothing.

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Out of curiosity, what are these? :D

The names given were for very abusive lists in 1st edition.

Start focusing on VP instead of just killing stuff. Teleporting 8" will give you more VP than killing stuff in most schemes/strategies. And you can win a game with your entire crew dead.

and

Thought to be fair, it tends to be a lot easier the other way around.

As Hypoking states achieving objectives is much easier when you dont also have to worry about your opponents models countering things. It was a fairly reliable path to victory in 1st edition and still somewhat viable in 2nd (though a bit more difficult).

@WindlordRyu, though I agree that you can generally win games by focusing on your objectives, it is also true that with the changes to M2E a player has a lot less control over what those are. For example with the Strategies all being shared now, you can no longer just focus on your strategy. You will have to interact (not the action) a lot more to actively deny your opponent VP's. Add in the reduction of the available schemes to a small pool and again a player has much less control over how things play out. Lastly, consider that the reduction in guarantied game turns to 5 tends to force a "mad dash" to objective areas rather than more tactical positioning. There are a few constants though that do provide advantage to the crews that can consistently address them. Ophelia and the kin are one of those crews.

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