Lillth 2.0

[Afro]

Hi,

I'm a new player and I just recently received a Lillith Starter Box (thanks to Wyrd). I was wondering if you guys had any idea on how she is supposed to be played. The only guides I find on the net are for her 1.5 version and her abilities seem to be very very different from what they were. So as a new player I,m not sure what I'm supposed to be doing with her.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks a bunch.

[Aesop]

In 1.5 I never had any interest in Lilith but when the new rules came out she jumped to the top of my list. In my experience so far here's what I've seen:

I liken Lilith and her brood to the brief animated scene in Kill Bill where the deadly viper assassination squad stand in a circle throwing punches at the bride while she pinballs back and forth from person to person. Lilith's crew is all about hitting hard, passing the target around between each other and murdering. In 1.5 it just seems like a fast strong crew. Now it's more like a murder dance. If you have her nephilim in the right places and can connect when you need to you can orchestrate some deadly stuff.

I'll start with the minions and then go to Lilith herself...

Young Nephilim - Fast, fairly hard hitting, Ml 6 (so good at connecting) and a auto push trigger on the connect. This guy likes to charge just to the other side of an enemy, hit them once for some damage and hit them a second time for some additional damage and send the enemy back into your ranks.

Tot - Weak on their own but extremely fast. The tots sprint is 100% reliable now compared to 1.5 as you always get at least 1 walk from it and even better now that you can cheat any mask in for the additional walk. When I draw a hand with a ace or 2 of mask I hold onto it sometimes now, where in the past I would have always discarded it (rush of magic). He also has pounce giving him a free swing when a model ends a push in his 1" ml range, which ties in perfectly with all the pushes the rest of your crew like to do. So really, there's 2 functions this guy can play for me depending on the situation. 1) he could be a quick little objective grabber/scheme marker dropper. 2) You can hang him back with the safety of his brood and let them feed him weakened prey to grow up into a bigger, more deadly young.

Mature - I've been playing smaller games to get more in so I don't usually hire a mature. That said, the few times I've had him on the table (via grow mechanic) he's absolutely devastated the opposition. With a on every attack, 8" charge, ml6 and a 4/5/6 damage profile he's the very definition of monster. In addition, not unlike the rest of his brood he has a trigger on his attack that lets you choose to deal no damage and instead push the target 4" and charge someone else. Theoretically if you had the cards you could string a chain of charge, 1 swing for dg, 2nd swing for push and charge someone else. Finally, his tactical action (1) wing buffet just adds 1 more trick to your bag of push shenanigans.

Barbaros - Again, more pushy tricks (seeing a theme here). Barbaros is quickly becoming my favorite model. Every time he connects he pushes the enemy 4". He's also resilient as a truck with Armor 1 and an amazing defensive trigger that on the mask damages the opponent and pushes them away (surprise!). Equipped with the right upgrades he is nearly unkillable.

Cherub - Until last night I thought the cherub was cool, but not as awesome as I do today. The cherub's bow has an auto trigger to push an enemy 5" and do some minor damage. Simply another tool to get those models you want to devour closer to your hungry little tots and young. He also has a cool little innate ability that allows models to take interact actions for 1 less AP while within his aura. But my favorite trick the cherub has is on his attack action Rise Up which turns a 3" area around a model and the area the model is standing on into severe and hazardous terrain. This effectively halves the walk/charge of that model and forces an irresistible damage flip on it's activation. The utility of this little guy is huge.

Finally the queen herself, Lilith - Lilith is what you'd expect her to be with more tricks. First and foremost high defense and great at swinging a sword. The defensive trigger makes her great while engaged, where she wants to be. Here most notable spell is probably Tangle Shadows (1.5's transposition). It's not easy to get off, casting on a 5, but when it does it can be a huge swing and very demoralizing for an opponent when one of his key models drops deep inside your crews nest.

So that's base models, I'll quickly touch on the upgrades I've been taking and the tricks I've been pulling with combinations of abilities. Warning, some of these might be obvious.

Lilith's sudden darkness ability is neat. A 0 action that give you +1 dg if you charge through terrain. However, you don't always have terrain available. But wait! Beckon Malifaux upgrade gives her a 0 action to place the Illusionary forest anywhere w/in 16". Crazy range, but more often than not I find myself dropping it in the line between me and the enemy I want to charge, 0 action Sudden Darkness and charging with 2-3 swings and a dg profile of 4/5/7 on ml7. That's enough to take most stuff down.

Now maybe you'd rather the model come to you, instead of you charging to it. If you add the Wicked Mistress upgrade to Lilith she can first drop the Illusionary forest, then transfixing gaze a target, pushing it is cg towards her. If it ends in the Illusionary Forest (which it should if you measured right) it'll take a 1/2/3 dg flip and gain slow. Then Lilith can spend her other 2 ap swinging that big ole greatsword with on the dg flips (because she didn't charge) usually giving you the opportunity to cheat the dg up to severe.

The last upgrade I love to take with Lilith is Rapid Growth. Growing nephilim is MUCH easier this time around, especially when your hardest hitter can kill the model and "feed" it to a tot or young w/in 2". This again ties in to all the pushes the whole crew has. If you keep your models strategically in a pack (and hope the other guy doesn't have a ton of blasts) you can generally pull or push a model into the heart of it and tear it apart, earning the soulstone for the upgrade back in 1 grow.

Summon the blood is one I take sometimes but always get caught up growing stuff instead of using it the way I intend. But it definitely has it's uses. The upgrade allows Lilith to target a friendly model with the black blood ability deal 1 dg to it and have it spurt black blood in a 2" pulse around it. Ideally I think you'd run one of your super fast (sacrificial) tots into a pack of enemy models and then on lilith's activation have the opportunity to dish out 6 irresistible damage on the group of them.

Finally, like I said, if you put the right upgrade on barbaros he becomes nearly impossible to kill. The specific upgrade I'm talking about is Nexus of Power, which lets any model which uses a soulstone w/in a 6" aura heal 2 dg at the end of the action. At 1 soulstone, I honestly don't see myself ever not taking it.

Basically, I keep Liliths brood in a pack, tactically killing models to grow my tots and young with the variety of pushes, pulls and switcharoos available. The simple targeting of one of your opponents smaller models with tangle shadows to drop next to Lilith and a tot, murder them and insta-grow the tot to a young is beautiful. If I need to drop scheme markers, I'll dedicate a tot or two or have barbaros nimble his way around the board, dropping markers playing whack-a-mole and knocking folks aside using the defensive trigger (stoning for the mask if necessary because, why not, he'll heal 2 dg if they connect).

I could probably go on for a while longer but I think I'll stop there.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Aesop
Formatting (bolding models and upgrades)

[Marcalla]

Another thing about the Cherub's Rise Up is that you can use it on Lilith to give her even more defensive protection. Since she's a "master of Malifaux" she ignores sever and dangerous terrain (such as that provided by "rise up") in effect making anybody that wants to engage her in melee (or she engages in melee) have to take that dangerous terrain flip.

The cherub was really great for schemes, move it early to put it in place (where you want to work schemes) then models can move using there general Ap's for moving and a 0 action to drop a scheme marker.

I'd rather it had Accomplice as opposed to Companion to synergize a bit better with its abilities.

When I picture Lilith's crew on the table I always think of them like lions or other pack hunters. They pick out a target, separate it from the herd and toss it to the pack for the feeding frenzy. (thanks to pounce and thirsty mandrake) you can get quite a few free attacks.

[Aesop]

During the beta I considered the mandrake an auto-take. It took liliths ml from 6 to 7, range from 2" to 3" and gave her effectively the pounce ability. Thankfully when the rulebook was rełeased they changed her Greatsword to match Lady J's at ml7. For that reason I don't find the upgrade nearly as essential anymore. That said, combining the thirsty mandrake, transfixing gaze and illusionary forest has HUGE potential. Drop the forest, push the target it's charge into it with trans gaze (dealing dg for them ending in it) and then swing away with positive twists on dg. It's definitely a recipe for murder. The only downside I see with that is I prefer to keep grow on Lilith herself and with those other three there's no room for it. So in the event everything goes to plan and you slaughter your intended target, the tot/young you have hanging back doesn't get the auto-grow.

I see barbaros as a bad grow upgrade carrier because he's not so much of a killer as he is a mobile pushy tank. Lilith is the hardest hitter on the squad and she also has the functionally to get the enemy to her without leaving the rest of her brood behind.

[Afro]

Thanks guys. This gives me a much better understanding of how my crew is supposed to work. I guess I'll have to buy the arsenal pack to get all the upgrades though :s. If that's the case as may aswell buy some of the older models that have not been released in M2 yet since their cards will come in the arsenal pack correct?.

Again thanks a bunch. I'll be sure to post some battle reports.

[Gorbad]

All the models in the new rulebook are in the arsenal deck. The remaining models will get beta rules Monday and then a full release with another card deck in January so by Monday you should be able to play with everything using just the arsenal box and the free PDF.

[Joel]

Managed to use the mature nephilim to bounce between 2 models with charge through and some careful positioning. Killed one and severely wounded the other in one activation, and had the surviving model out of position too.

I was very impressed with him.

[EnternalVoid]

During the beta I considered the mandrake an auto-take. It took liliths ml from 6 to 7, range from 2" to 3" and gave her effectively the pounce ability. Thankfully when the rulebook was rełeased they changed her Greatsword to match Lady J's at ml7. For that reason I don't find the upgrade nearly as essential anymore. That said, combining the thirsty mandrake, transfixing gaze and illusionary forest has HUGE potential. Drop the forest, push the target it's charge into it with trans gaze (dealing dg for them ending in it) and then swing away with positive twists on dg. It's definitely a recipe for murder. The only downside I see with that is I prefer to keep grow on Lilith herself and with those other three there's no room for it.

Well a way to still get this sort of set up and keep your Growth might be to use the Cherub a bit more for Marcalla said with Rise up. As the condition it gives says, the space the model occupies and with in 3" counts as Hazardous and Severe terrain, meaning if you have it up around Lilith and you use Tranfixing Gaze and they end up in it, they not only take the Slow and 1/2/3 damage but a 1/2/4 for the hazardous terrain as well. Then if they end up close enough for the Mandrake, you get a swing on top of it. So 2-7 damage, slow, and then a melee swing.

Also as the condition from Rise Up says the space the model occupies counts as severe and hazardous terrain, she can still use her (0) action before she goes charging.

Overall this of course is not as easy to set up as taking Illusionary forest as you have to active the Cerub first and cast Rising Up before activating Lilith *Likely a good reason why the Cerub does not have Accomplice*, but still possible if you want the option in your list and want the Growth upgrade as well.

[Sezar]

Add the Fears Upgrade (sorry, forgot the whole name) for another possible 3 Dg when the enemy activates while engaged with Lilith if they fail a Wk 14 Duel... Suddenly, staying close to Lilith is more dangerous than ever!

[Joel]

Add the Fears Upgrade (sorry, forgot the whole name) for another possible 3 Dg when the enemy activates while engaged with Lilith if they fail a Wk 14 Duel... Suddenly, staying close to Lilith is more dangerous than ever!

Fears given form

[Marcalla]

@EternalVoid: I'm not sure that Lilith (or any model the effect is on) is considered to be moving through the rise up terrain. Don't get me wrong, it would be great if it did. But I think its more like an aura that moves with the model. And your totally right about the Illusionary forest being the easier option for Lilith charging and probably why the Cherub has companion and not accomplice.

[EnternalVoid]

@EternalVoid: I'm not sure that Lilith (or any model the effect is on) is considered to be moving through the rise up terrain. Don't get me wrong, it would be great if it did. But I think its more like an aura that moves with the model. And your totally right about the Illusionary forest being the easier option for Lilith charging and probably why the Cherub has companion and not accomplice.

I can see the concern but consider this, would you say a Model with the Angry Wild condition from Rise Up has to spend double the movement when moving during their Walk and Charge actions due to Severe terrain? You will say yes as under the condition it says you count the space the model occupies as severe terrain. Under the rules on page 42 for Severe terrain it says you spend double the movement when you are moving through the terrain. The exact wording is "Moving through severe terrain cost double the distance moved". So if you are suffering the negative to move, then you are moving through the terrain.

The problem with this is the Wording, as the Vast Majority of Terrain *I think the Cerub is alone right now in the ability to create an Aura that counts as Terrain right now* is static in its location. It might move, be removed, be placed, or what not, but it does not generally actively move at the same time as a model does. Thus the oddity in how it operates and how the wording feels as we think of Through as meaning against something that is activately remaining where it is. But under the wording of Severe Terrain you have to be moving through the Rise Up terrain to be affected by the terrain rules.

Now I can get why people would not want to see it this way, as it seems kind of a dirtball set up for Lilith. But it is not any worse of an interaction between Master and Totem then something like Rasputina Paralyzing a model using her mirror and then the Wendigo companion chaining to charge in and Devour the model before anyone can interrupt the combo. And only a bit better then Ramos having Combat Mechanic so if he summons 3 Spiders, or an Electric Creation, he can use Accomplice to immediately activate them before someone can stop you from swarming together or blowing up the Electric Creation. Even with only one upgrade Zoraida and the Voodoo doll got some nasty synergy and you only get one chance to resist a Ca7 spell, after which they can't really do much to stop anywhere from 7-9 damage that follows.

Now I will also put in, that I might be wrong, that there might be some rule that I am missing somewhere. But as of the terrain stuff on page 42 I am pretty darn sure that you will count as going through terrain if under the Angry Wild Condition.

[Marcalla]

I totally get what your sayin there Eternal, and it could very well be that way. It just seems counter-intuitive. As both the model and the terrain would move at the same time. Is the model considered to be "moving through" the terrain or is it moving with the terrain (or in this case, is the terrain moving along with the model)?

Also when I read the ability, I didn't assume that a model with the condition would have to spend double to move.

Being that it is currently the only terrain (terrain effect) that moves along with a model it makes for interpretation issues. I would love if it worked as you suggested as it would make Rise Up (and the cherub) even better than it already is.

Like I said before though I'm not particularly one way or the other on this, just trying to find the intended way to play it, so I appreciate the debate and different view.

[MotoMofo]

Add the Fears Upgrade (sorry, forgot the whole name) for another possible 3 Dg when the enemy activates while engaged with Lilith if they fail a Wk 14 Duel... Suddenly, staying close to Lilith is more dangerous than ever!

It's a Df14 duel. Barbaros's Gladiatus upgrade is a Wk14 test to resist a push, damage flip, and slow. VERY useful.

[Aesop]

...both the model and the terrain would move at the same time. Is the model considered to be "moving through" the terrain or is it moving with the terrain (or in this case, is the terrain moving along with the model)?

I'm with Eternal on this. I don't believe the terrain is moving. I think the hazardous terrain is static, but appearing and disappearing.

I envision it as as the model moves, the terrain they are moving through is angrily rising up and striking at them. The thorn bushes don't grow legs and follow you wherever you go, they just spring up out of no where and lash out at you.

[Joel]

Yep, the land is angry - the model is constantly moving within hazardous terrain.

[Afro]

Can anyone give me a list of models i should get to start with. Or a simple effective Lilith crew?

[Aesop]

Can anyone give me a list of models i should get to start with. Or a simple effective Lilith crew?

Lilith

Cherub

Barbaros

3x terror tot

2x young nephilim

Mature Nephilim

[Afro]

Thanks . Should i get more Tots in order to have more chances of leveling them? Or is 4 - 5 tots on the board too much :s

[decker_cky]

I'd go with the models listed to start - and probably waldgeists as well (work nicely with the master of nature side of lilith). Depending on how playtesting goes, there's a bunch of extra nephilim that will fit nicely providing some new playstyles.

[Twg]

The crew, as listed above, is a good starting point if your looking at a grow list. I have to say that I like the look of Illuminated for some staying power. Possibly some of the best minions in the game IMHO.

[rancor709]

Illuminated Plus lilith are incredible solid. If your looking for a model with some good survival and good dmg the Illuminated are hard to pass up in both Neverborn and in 10t.

[Joel]

Illuminated Plus lilith are incredible solid. If your looking for a model with some good survival and good dmg the Illuminated are hard to pass up in both Neverborn and in 10t.

I haven't tried them with her yet - but I've put them on the table with other masters - they are an excellent addition to almost any crew.

[SBrunner]

Lilith

Cherub

Barbaros

3x terror tot

2x young nephilim

Mature Nephilim

New player going to work on.a Lilith crew. I have metal Lilith set, 2 young Nephilim and Cherub. Kind of hard to build a 50ss crew. I will not get Barbaros until he comes out as a single blister. I do however have 3 sorrows, candy, kade and teddy. Definitely want to leave one young Nephilim aside for growing.

[Joel]

Get the teddy in there - his ability to push models around plays directly into the strengths of the rest of the crew.