Incorporeal vs Flight

[Mike3838]

I just wanted to check I understood the difference between these abilities correctly...

Flight allows you to ignore terrain or models while moving.

Incorporeal allows you to ignore terrain or models while moving, and gives damage reduction against some strikes.

Am I right in saying that Incorporeal effectively subsumes Flight, as in, all Incorporeal models can fly with regards to movement? The Nothing Beast can float up to the top of a building rather than having to climb it?

It feels a bit off, given that one ability relates to how a creature moves, and the other relates to its tangibility.

If this is correct, why do Incorporeal models still take falling damage, given that we're assuming that they're all floaty-like..?

[Sevorin]

If you ignore terrain while moving, you can not place the model on top of a building, correct?

I'm sure that is not the intent, but it is how it reads. It would change the way its played if flight added "may ignore terrain".

[hypoking]

I'm not sure that you can't. Ht is a feature of terrain. If a model ignores terrain I don't see why it wouldn't ignore Ht.

Edit: Relevant wording on both rules would give both the same mobility, with the caveat that different types of terrain interact with both differently, ie enclosed.

Edit2: In regards to falling damage I've got no clue on that one. You could argue that as soon as the model starts moving the ht of any terrain becomes irrelevant and as such it's not going to take any falling damage. You could also argue that the damage is being imposed by the game state rather than the terrain itself, the incorporeal model ignores the terrain but the game can still see it and will still gib it when it moves off it.

Edit3: Considering ghosts take full damage from falling and tend to be a bit lacking in hp it might be for the best to keep them away from cliffs lest they get stuck up there like a particularly angry cat in a tree.

Edited August 23, 2013 by hypoking

[Fetid Strumpet]

Enclosed prevents flying models from going through the walls, but yes this is an interaction I was curious about too, as the way it is worded Incorporeal models technically fly as well, but will take damage from falling, while Flying models won't, and Incorporeal models aren't restricted from going through walls into enclosed Terrain.

[Joel]

I want to pitch into this thread, but am wary of doing so without the new rulebook in my hands.

I have a question though:

Apart from calling the ability "flight" and us knowing what that used to do, what is there in the flight ability that gives models the ability fly onto rooftops?

This might be counter-intuitive, but what is written where that allows this?

Once we've map nailed that down, can we find the same text for incorporeal or not?

If so, then yep - incorporeal can change levels freely.

If not, then they can't.

Anyone got the new book in hand?

[hypoking]

In the rule itself there isn't much. Snugged away in the section of the book which specifically deals with defining terrain it makes a mention or two to models flying over buildings.

[Joel]

If it worded just like in the beta then?

[TarlSS]

So does this mean an incorporeal model can just fly onto the roof of a building?

What's the ruling regarding terrain, roofs and slopes/etc?

[Fenton Crack]

So does this mean an incorporeal model can just fly onto the roof of a building?

What's the ruling regarding terrain, roofs and slopes/etc?

And with the overhead measuring for movement, if a model with a walk of 4 is 3" away from the base of a 20" tall tower, can it use its walk (assuming it has Flight) to fly a land on top of the building?

[Joel]

That's how things worked in 1.5

Until I have the official rulebook in hand for 2.0, I can't comment.

[dgraz]

I'm hoping Incorporeal does not equal Fly/float.......look at the Night Terrors from 1.5...they had both Fly and Spirit......they could fly through ceilings and such and that made sense because they actually had both abilities.....I just don't see that every spirit should be allowed to fly.

[Joel]

Since flying models explicitly do not take falling damage, and incorporeal do not have this feature, moving from the top of a building is going to hurt the ghosties.

This would indicate a difference in the way such movements are treated....but it's not clear.

[Barnaberible]

I can't find anything specific in the rules, only the cards seem to have the details on

Flight - this model is immune to falling damage and may ignore any terrain or models when moving

Incorporeal - this model ignores, and is ignored by, other models and terrain during any movement or push. Reduce all damage this model suffers from sh and ml attack actions by half

So they both ignore terrain so surely if flight can get you to the top of a building so can incorporeal (although that dosent make sense logically) and if an incorporeal model can therefore get to the top of a building, why would it take damage when going down?

Maybe I missed something?

[Fetid Strumpet]

It will take damage when falling because the rules say if you fall X height you take X damage, and it doesn't have a rule that prevents it. Flying models do have a rule that prevents falling dmg.

[hypoking]

This has got to be my new favorite thing about mk2. Void Wretches may be able to wade through hellfire but God help them if they find themselves on a small hillock.

Edit: Gravity, the ultimate ghost buster.

Edited August 25, 2013 by hypoking

[Barnaberible]

It will take damage when falling because the rules say if you fall X height you take X damage, and it doesn't have a rule that prevents it. Flying models do have a rule that prevents falling dmg.

Yup, I agree they take damage when they fall, but it dosent seem to make sense that they can get to the top of a building unimpeded (I don't personally think they should be able to) but then can't get down again!

And full damage at that! Maybe ghosties are scared of heights in Malifaux

[Fetid Strumpet]

Well, its an abstraction, so there are going to be oddities. If you want to get technical, all Incorporeal models would need some form of levitation or flight because they are incorporeal, the ground can't support them because they would go right through it, and that is assuming gravity even works on them.

I agree it's a little odd, but it's certainly something that can be worked with as I don't know a single game that doesn't have oddities in its rules set somewhere.

[hackdZ]

Like others have said, I'm not sure how it works in 2.0 but frankly if a model can "float" through walls, buildings, etc, I see no reason why they couldn't "float" through the roof. and land on top.

Who knows though, maybe everyone who's a spirit in Malifaux died from falling off of roofs, so now they're scared of them???

[Barnaberible]

So with the wording as is if someone pushed a spirit into a piece of terrain with the enclosed feature (eg a building) it could chose to go either inside the building or onto the roof?

[Fenton Crack]

So with the wording as is if someone pushed a spirit into a piece of terrain with the enclosed feature (eg a building) it could chose to go either inside the building or onto the roof?

That is an interesting thought. Push specifically says a pushed model cannot pass through impassable objects (no exceptions listed for for incorporeal, but could have been omission) and does not allow climb, so maybe even incorporeal just get slammed up against walls.

[hypoking]

Incorporeal models ignore terrain during pushes, explicitly.

[Fenton Crack]

Incorporeal models ignore terrain during pushes, explicitly.

Ah yes, on the card, Incorporeal specifies ignoring terrain on a push, so even though page 34 says, "pushed model cannot pass through impassible objects", that would be an example of the "more specific rule" controls rule. Since Flight only mentions movement and not pushes, I guess that is an other example of the difference between the two, as a model with flight cannot apparently fly up to avoid terrain when pushed?

As far as ending on the roof (or a lower floor for that matter) it still appears on its face to be a no go because that would be a climb during push?