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Public Response to the Malifaux Community


EricJ

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I do not think the classic folks are saying anything of the sort.

I would think that would be something that would make some of you HAPPY to get rid of the critics of M2E.

Instead itsstill just a ****ing contest.

You just did it. By implying that we'd be happier if people would just shut up about how they hate M2E. I completely disagree. It's constructive disagreement that makes the game better.

What it's actually turning into is; M2E people are mean.....and we M1.5 people are all angels. It's the highest form of hypocrisy.

I really don't know why I'm even here.....the hypocrisy pulled me in. I'm deleting my subscription to this thread. So done.

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I for one, am waiting for M2E, because I believe it will be better, games tend to get better with the update and the next version :)

Better edition of WarGame make my Dark Elf and Witchunter miniatures (masive colection to say the truth) to stay forever under my bed ...

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If it gains the reputation of bein a place that isn't friendly to those who don't agree with the majority, where people who don't "toe the line" are cast out, or treated as if they are pariahs, then I honestly don't think that a company that has succeeded thus far for the opposite reputation can survive in the long run.

Devil's advocate here, GW's had the biggest hat in the wargamming ring for a while now and its reputation hasn't been anything favorable for a long time. The mini's market is willing to forgive a LOT so long as a company keeps putting out kewl toy soldiers.

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I strongly believe second edition is a far superior game for so many reason and it will continue to be my focus going forward. But people should do what they enjoy, and no one should ever tell you otherwise...or that I said otherwise.
I'm not going to bother joining the IP discussion, I can't understand legalese. Just want to share some of my experiences with 1.5 to show why I agree that M2E is a superior game, even though Malifaux 1.5 is a really good game.

There as a game where Lady J got to make 2 charge attacks and 2 regular attacks against Lord Chompy, all of the at Cb11, all of them missed. Then there was another game where Rasputina got charged by Lord Chompy, and then proceeded to completely own him. All because of SS flips.

Sonnia vs Leveticus. First game, he hid his wives in a building. I used Explosive Burst to attack them through the wall and basically won the game turn 1. Second game, he hid his wives away from Sonnia but in range of two Death Marshals I had moving along a flank. He tried to kill them with Leveticus, I just said "They're Intractable, you can't" and basically won the game turn 2. Not much fun was had by either player during those games.

Third game lasted long enough for me to manifest. First thing Levi did when he won Initiative during an important turn was trying to kill a Witchling who kept him shut down with Disrupt Magic. He cheats a 12 to make sure the Red Joker can't save me, I cheat the Red Joker and makes him Sacrifice himself with Reflect Magic because he forgot Mark of Conflagragation. There was also a game where Nicodem went all in to kill The Judge to get the corpse marker he needed during the VP rush, then I told him about Never Me. Both games were decided by forgetting minor rules.

I had just put together my Kirai crew and brought it to the game shop (I generally only bring one crew), where there a lot of new people. The local Henchman was busy holding 2 demos simultaneously (which meant no Demo crews I could borrow) so I ended up playing a guy who had just learned the rules and put together a non-avatar Ramos crew of his own. After the game he asked me what he could've done better to potentially win the game. I answered truthfully and said "I was playing nice to let you do anything at all, this matchup favor my crew so heavily you can't really win".

Sometimes, even with 7+ people there, it felt like I didn't have anyone to play with. The games when I faced someone as good as or better than me it was a really fun experience. The game is just so complicated and unbalanced that those games are too rare.

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And we're back to name calling and finger pointing.

For those of you that want to stick die hard to Malifaux 1.5, enjoy. We do.

For those of you looking forward to Malifaux 2E, excellent, it's just about to reach the market and we think you'll quite like it.

Either way and for whatever 'side' you fall on, for all the strong emotions, thank you. You wouldn't have them if you didn't care for what we've created and I'm quite pleased to see so many folks passionate about this game and hobby in general.

That said, stop ****ing in the sandbox, doesn't make it any fun to play in.

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You just did it. By implying that we'd be happier if people would just shut up about how they hate M2E. I completely disagree. It's constructive disagreement that makes the game better.

What it's actually turning into is; M2E people are mean.....and we M1.5 people are all angels. It's the highest form of hypocrisy.

I really don't know why I'm even here.....the hypocrisy pulled me in. I'm deleting my subscription to this thread. So done.

For starters. Glad you are going away.

Second, I like plenty of aspects of M2E so do not try to pigeonhole me.

I think classic could benefit from several M2E changes and would not say the reverse as so many seem happy with M2E as it is.

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Well Eric et al,

First a caveat: I don't play enough to be invested in any set of rules, my focus has been the hobby of miniature painting and collecting.

I suppose Wyrd, Eric, Nathan etc should take as a measure of success the passion with which folks approach your game. No matter the specific ruleset you have engaged a community that feel strongly enough to react passionately to the pending reset. I suspect that many a game designer would be somewhat envious. I understand the approach Eric has taken, he needs to protect his IP, trademarks, copyrights, whatever...even stripping the question of the personalities involved there is ample precedent that if an exception is allowed it exposes the IP to any comers...If this was allowed another game co, for example GW or Privateer could legally come in and with greater resources trump Wyrd and point to a court that the company wasn't interested in protecting the IP. You can't allow exceptions. Unfortunately it has become a big poorly timed public mess with personality factors etc coming into play, none of which helps either side.

As creators of the game, I have to side with the Wyrd crew...anyone is free to play whatever version of the game they wish, but control of publicly disseminated content needs to stay with Wyrd unless at a future point they come to some sort of agreement, which would frankly weaken the brand. These guys are game designers, as they have gone through the life cycle of this game it became apparent to them that to strengthen the game and grow it a reset of some sort was needed. I'm sure it was not an easy decision but they made it and should be allowed to focus on the development of the new model. Obviously if there is something they missed from the 1st edition that didn't make the 2nd but really is part of the unique game experience maybe it will make it back in M2.5E

My 2 cents

Dave

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I'm going to have to disagree with you as to whether those examples prove anything, WindlordRyu. I'd go into detail, but as Nathan said, there has been more than enough of that constitutionality, and this thread really isn't the place for it.

Also, because my thanks button has gone AWOL, i just want to :+fate Nathan's post.

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What I find funny is that eric has imply said they want to understand what others using the IP could mean and they want to be careful about it to protect their interests.

Its NON-wyrd employees on the prowl against classic that have caused the arguments.

How about you let them decide for themselves?

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Well Eric et al,

First a caveat: I don't play enough to be invested in any set of rules, my focus has been the hobby of miniature painting and collecting.

I suppose Wyrd, Eric, Nathan etc should take as a measure of success the passion with which folks approach your game. No matter the specific ruleset you have engaged a community that feel strongly enough to react passionately to the pending reset. I suspect that many a game designer would be somewhat envious. I understand the approach Eric has taken, he needs to protect his IP, trademarks, copyrights, whatever...even stripping the question of the personalities involved there is ample precedent that if an exception is allowed it exposes the IP to any comers...If this was allowed another game co, for example GW or Privateer could legally come in and with greater resources trump Wyrd and point to a court that the company wasn't interested in protecting the IP. You can't allow exceptions. Unfortunately it has become a big poorly timed public mess with personality factors etc coming into play, none of which helps either side.

As creators of the game, I have to side with the Wyrd crew...anyone is free to play whatever version of the game they wish, but control of publicly disseminated content needs to stay with Wyrd unless at a future point they come to some sort of agreement, which would frankly weaken the brand. These guys are game designers, as they have gone through the life cycle of this game it became apparent to them that to strengthen the game and grow it a reset of some sort was needed. I'm sure it was not an easy decision but they made it and should be allowed to focus on the development of the new model. Obviously if there is something they missed from the 1st edition that didn't make the 2nd but really is part of the unique game experience maybe it will make it back in M2.5E

My 2 cents

Dave

That's actually not true. copyright is not trademark. You do not have to actively defend copyright to keep it from being weakened. Also, If PP wanted to, they could more or less do that now. As has been stated, game systems are not copyrighted. Only the language used is. Characters are not copyrighted. They can be trademarked. anything derived from fluff, the language of the system, or the stats of the cards themselves is still copyright Wyrd, because it is a deriviative work. Copyright is not a reason to stop people from doing it. Trademark is. However, even that, with a liscence(which Nix Should have tried to get before he proposed posting anything other than errata changes and forum setup) should not be a problem. Pathfinder posts their entire library online in an SRD. if this was an issue, I can't imagine they would do that.

Personally, I wouldn't want to go forward on a project like this without at least Eric and/or Nathan's approval, and possibly something in writing. It not only keeps you from being open to lawsuit(which isn't worth it whether you are in the clear legally or not--it's too much time and money for the effort) but it is, ethically, the right thing to do. I wouldn't take your child away to a boarding school without your permission, whether or not I beleive it is better for them, and I understand that in many ways, that is kind of what the classic project was doing.

I hope that we can come to some agreement like this in the future, with or without Nix. I would love to see Malifaux Classic movement that has, if not support, at least approval from Wyrd, whether it be here, or elsewhere.

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What I find funny is that eric has imply said they want to understand what others using the IP could mean and they want to be careful about it to protect their interests.

Its NON-wyrd employees on the prowl against classic that have caused the arguments.

How about you let them decide for themselves?

Yes it sure would be great if people waited and let Wyrd decide on and write their own policies about IP and licensing before throwing it to the public to make assumptions and accusations. I'm sure neither side of the argument would do anything like that, right?

Edited by HalcyonSeraph
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That's actually not true. copyright is not trademark. You do not have to actively defend copyright to keep it from being weakened. Also, If PP wanted to, they could more or less do that now. As has been stated, game systems are not copyrighted. Only the language used is. Characters are not copyrighted. They can be trademarked. anything derived from fluff, the language of the system, or the stats of the cards themselves is still copyright Wyrd, because it is a deriviative work. Copyright is not a reason to stop people from doing it. Trademark is. However, even that, with a liscence(which Nix Should have tried to get before he proposed posting anything other than errata changes and forum setup) should not be a problem. Pathfinder posts their entire library online in an SRD. if this was an issue, I can't imagine they would do that..

I didn't want to go into that because as a whole it is clearly a mix of trademarks, copyrights and other legally defined entities that would need lawyers to straighten out. What makes THE game everyone so passionate about, what is the defining elements that make it what it is. It's not just a game system and mechanic, although part of its appeal is the cheating of fates by card draw and use, is it the idea of factions (probably not, there are lots of ways to express different but balanced opponents) is it the fluff-like stories behind the factions and driving characters..maybe..clearly a protected entity. It's a really complex system that needs evaluation and definition and initially all Eric was looking for was space to consider,define and protect. For most of us it is an interesting question, and clearly something that stirs passions in many, but for the creators I have to suspect that they have invested 110% in to put food on the table and a roof over their heads in a market that doesn't often allow that and they have every right to say "no" and "wait a minute"

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I have to congratulate everyone, this is the saddest excuse of an event I've ever seen during any edition change I have ever been present in. Congrats to all for making me wonder where the hell do you people get the right to DEMAND to do whatever you want with whatever you want. Must be the bloody "download" culture that has killed the concept of somebody having an intellectual property that they may want to protect just cause.

Incredibly enough, Eric seemed that he might have considered the idea seriously, but the childlike wailing, (goddammit Bill, why? you completely lost me now, what the hell did you pretend to get having your little bloody tantrum?) seems to have burned that bridge, or at least from that front.

Since I'm in a **** poor mood I'll join the rambling masses.

To answer the original question. I have not, and will not ever discourage someone from playing first edition malifaux. In fact I even added multiple v1.5 tournaments to our Gen Con lineup. (This was a huge mistake in retrospect, as due to the disappointing lack of interest in these tournaments, with barely more than 50% registration, we might end up losing our preferred event organizer status with Gen Con. Only perhaps saved by our completely sold out second edition tournaments). I would also publicly encourage the efforts of v1.5 payers to gather here or on other sites and continue enjoying what they enjoy.

This to me speak volumes of much of this whole spectacle is a very very very loud group when by popular acclaim, a 1.5 tourny was made with less than stellar participation.

Thank you Eric, but I think you misunderstood the question. I am not affiliated with Malifaux classic project. My thread was hijack by people talking about it but I prefer Malifaux 1.5

The reason I asked you What is your opinion of people who intend to stay with Malifaux 1.5 ? is because for about a month I felt very unwelcome on this forum. Some very zealous supporters of M2E mock, bully, and demonise people who are worried about Malifaux 1.5 losing support . It’s like they trying to drive us away, and I don’t think it’s in Wyrd’s interest. The last thing you want is for people to rage damp their collections on Ebay. Just look at the very first reply to my Public question to Eric J thread.

I also see a lot of demonizing of M2e and the people who like it lately, it's very very very tiring. When I had my fallout with GW, I was every day whining in the warseer board still it finally hit me, this wasn't for me anymore and I was only being a dick. The other guys didn't see the million flaws I saw, they enjoyed it and I finally understood I had not right to tell them what and whatnot to do, specially after I had decided to quit. I'm not saying you are in this situation, I am not saying people haven't been edgy on their interactions, but damn am I tired of the whole victim complex that is constantly being put out here.

I turly hope that isn't the case, because if that is the case, then it tells me all that I need to know about supporting Wyrd in the future.

Entitlement much?

I pretty much cannot disagree with this more. in fact, the word entitlement alon makes it obvious that this post reeks of bias and confrontation. it is at least as passive aggressive as anything the classic movement did, and quite a bit more so than most.

If anything, it's posts like this that set out to lay blame, cause further widening of the gap, and otherwise make the other side look like they are irrational and childish that are poisoning the forum, and could easily poison the future of Wyrd. If it gains the reputation of bein a place that isn't friendly to those who don't agree with the majority, where people who don't "toe the line" are cast out, or treated as if they are pariahs, then I honestly don't think that a company that has succeeded thus far for the opposite reputation can survive in the long run.

For gods sake man, you are the definition of entitlement. You are pretty much DEMANDING, yes, I will use that word, DEMANDING that you be allowed to do whatever you want with their product and if not you will and I quote "because if that is the case, then it tells me all that I need to know about supporting Wyrd in the future.", what the hell does that even mean?. So according to you the whole "classic initiative" should have full disclosure to do whatever they want with all of the Wyrd product, so if tomorrow the community decides to do outright pornographic images of the viks, slap them in the card, have wyrd logos everywhere with other photoshoped art, you would be on your full entitled right since because you decided to buy wyrd product you have some magical right to publicly do whatever you want with it?

Nobody is going to your house to steal your books or card, nobody is telling you you can't play, nobody is saying you can't organize tournaments, but don't expect to be allowed to redo their rules and get a full blessing just cause. Seeing this sad pathetic excuse of a spectacle, if it was my company I wouldn't let anybody touch a licensing agreement even if my hands would be amputated if I didn't. It doesn't even have to be the whole "competing with itself thing" it's very bloody simple, it's their ball, they are the ones that decide what they do with it, trying to do the equivalent of emotional blackmail to get the ball is pretty bad form. Specially when seeing that the ball could have a very rough ride seeing some of the crap prowling about. And seeing how people are pretty much shying away from Bill now to try and get another bridge going speaks volume of the short span the classic movement will actually have.

This isn't about not agreeing, this is about constantly getting onboard any excuse to bash the whole thing and now expecting to be handed full intellectual property to do whatever the hell you want with the Wyrd image.

I do not think the classic folks are saying anything of the sort.

To my eye some of the more zealous of the M2E supporte rs have taken it upon heir own shoulders to become protectors of wyrd IP and have actively campaigned against those who are no longer trying to say what M2E should be but rather what they would like to do to M1E instead.

I would think that would be something that would make some of you HAPPY to get rid of the critics of M2E.

Instead itsstill just a ****ing contest.

For gods sake, you are making yourself into a martyr!! OH HEAR THYNE SAD TALE OF STERNUM, SO EVILLY ACCOSTED BY THE M2E EMPIRE!

Seeing a lot of your posts zealotry isn't only on the M2 side, thank you very much.

This isn't about "feedback" anymore, this is people that are actively wailing at what is the new current state of the game. M2E is what there is and it's here to stay and the core is already published, the creator has made it very clear that that is what he wants and being huffy because after the nth time you state "I don't like this rule" which clearly won't be changing makes it a pain, I DESPISE infinite triggers, but I noticed I lost that battle don't mention it anymore, since it's done with.

You don't want to join M2? Fine, play M1, nobody is saying that you can't, but if the plan is to be prowling around the forums to have any chance to say "SEE SEEE, IT'S WORSE!!!" than frankly, it's not about improving the game anymore, it isn't productive criticism anymore, it's nitpicking for the hell of nitpicking. I DESPISE the transformers, why the hell would I go to a forum dedicated to it to wail on it constantly? Like I already said, I did it with warhammer and for a while was "that guy" till I finally got the hint.

I know this post is pretty much incendiary to it's core and won't achieve anything, might regret posting it in a few hours, but right now, I'm feeling pretty damn fine.

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I think its funny that a small group of friends get together and alter 1.5 rules no problem. But a network of people from all over the world do it and its copyright infringement. Laws are funny. Besides I thought this thread was closed.. how are people still posting on it?

Ooops my mistake the original one was closed. I thought it was this one, my mistake. lol.

Edited by TroyPerez
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This community has become pure poison, regardless of which edition you choose to support. I have felt that for a while now and it is sad that this is how the Malifaux community has chosen to represent itself. While I was disagreeable with the changes I discovered to the game during open beta, it is the reaction of the community during this time that has chased me further and further away from participating in this process. I am glad that these views are not shared within my own personal gaming community and I can avoid these forums from now on.

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Locking this now, because it seems to have simply gotten personal for some people.

Just one closing thought: this is a forum about a game. Games should be fun. I don't care which edition you like more, I think they're both great, and I'm all for people supporting either one.

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