Public question to Eric J.

[Helm]

What's the thing with Blood Bowl and the living rulebook? Isn't that fanmade to update the game or am I mistaken?

The difference is that Blood Bowl isn't a game that GW intended to continue to make rules for. It's not like there was going to be a new edition or new models anytime soon. In addition, GW distributed rules (and stats iirc, but in Blood Bowl the two were bundled) for their Specialist Games for free online anyway.

GW had a situation where they were discontinuing company support for the game but wanted to keep the option to sell what miniatures they had. Fans offered to update rules for the game, and GW said "yes" to a few select people who were prominent in the community. While I can't speak as to the details of Blood bowl production, I have been privy to fans trying to develop Inquisitor 2.0, and getting permission for even that was really difficult. Bear in mind that these weren't just dedicated fans, one of them had managed to get his work into a Black Library book.

The two situations aren't really comparable; in GW's case they were trying to get rid of the last few models for a game that they were discontinuing, and keeping their ruleset alive for free gave some protection against the production of identical "Fantasy Football" games by other companies. In Wyrd's case, there's a new edition with new models being produced that they want people to be playing.

Its not going to grow, like Pathfinder did. It going to just keep the die hard 1.5 fans happy.

Looking at all the content that he has released, his eagerness to become a Henchman and get involved in playtesting and his reaction when Wyrd's relationship with and responses to his advice changed, can it really be said that Bill Anderson at least won't try to grow Malifaux Classic as much as humanly possible?

Edited July 26, 2013 by Helm
Read Nilus' post, didn't want to doublepost.

[HalcyonSeraph]

I don't think anyone is expecting them to support M1E. what we want is for them to, if they don't support M1E, get out of the way so that we can. I think it would be a good idea to keep it in the Malifaux forums under a M1E subforum, if for no other reason than that they can keep it under their tentative control, but either way, I suspect that those who want to update and continue playing M1E will find a way to band together and continue. It'll just go underground and become harder to track, and Wyrd will lose customers who would have bought plastic models that were available to m1E.

"If you won't support M1E get out of the way so we can" is equivalent to "Let us use your copyrighted IP, rules, character names, cards, etc, for free, in direct competition with your current products"

You can play 1.5 all you want. You can play 1.5 with house rules all you want. You can go buy all the book 4 plastics you want, or use proxies, or whatever. You just can't make a website slathered with Wyrd art and publish modified rules using Wyrd's prior work without their consent. I really fail to see why this is so hard to understand.

This is not blood bowl or epic40K. Those were dead, discontinued games, that were revived by fan efforts. Not games that were still around in new editions and had fans wanting to fork the old edition and keep working on it. There's a reason Pathfinder exists and isn't still called D&D 3.5. That was also different because so much of the game rules and setting were either explicitly "open-source" or were generic fantasy - you can't copyright warriors and wizards. And even then certain aspects, like some specific iconic monsters or spells and all character names, were off-limits.

I do not work for Wyrd, but I suspect they do not really worry too much about losing the theoretical business of a group that has already said it won't be buying the new edition, and by extension won't be buying any models that don't have 1.5 rules. They will lose less business by there being a 1.5 community than they will by allowing 1.75 to operate with their consent.

[Oxrs]

You just can't make a website slathered with Wyrd art and publish modified rules using Wyrd's prior work without their consent. I really fail to see why this is so hard to understand.

To be fair, anybody can take the rules and do with it what they will. They can even sell it if they want. The simple fact that is missing from this discussion is that there is zero copyright protection for rules, only creative expression. If the "Classic" crowd wants to do a 1.5+ ruleset, Wyrd can't stop them. They can talk about it as an alternative ruleset, creatively avoid names and titles, etc. This will make it awkward and often difficult, but they can do it. The only decision Wyrd has is whether or not to allow the non-profit use of their actual IP (rules not being protected, as Eric asserts). That's not an easy choice, but it needs to be clear that they actually have no legal control of their game rules under U.S. copyright.

[Jonasty]

It is a fanmade update to a game that GW had effectively abandoned, and so was done with their blessing. Blood Bowl was dead and fans revived it. That's not the same thing as fans forking the development of a game and making a game that basically does compete with the current version of the game.

This.

The difference is that Blood Bowl isn't a game that GW intended to continue to make rules for. It's not like there was going to be a new edition or new models anytime soon. In addition, GW distributed rules (and stats iirc, but in Blood Bowl the two were bundled) for their Specialist Games for free online anyway.

GW had a situation where they were discontinuing company support for the game but wanted to keep the option to sell what miniatures they had. Fans offered to update rules for the game, and GW said "yes" to a few select people who were prominent in the community. While I can't speak as to the details of Blood bowl production, I have been privy to fans trying to develop Inquisitor 2.0, and getting permission for even that was really difficult. Bear in mind that these weren't just dedicated fans, one of them had managed to get his work into a Black Library book.

The two situations aren't really comparable; in GW's case they were trying to get rid of the last few models for a game that they were discontinuing, and keeping their ruleset alive for free gave some protection against the production of identical "Fantasy Football" games by other companies. In Wyrd's case, there's a new edition with new models being produced that they want people to be playing.

And this.

I almost couldn't read Bill's MClassic post after his first allusion to Blood Bowl as it just kind of jumped out at me as not really grasping the differences in these situations. If this were a Blood Bowl situation, if Wyrd was saying "We're done with Malifaux, it was a good run but we've decided we want to shift away from that to only focus on Through the Breach and Puppet Wars as our model going forward" or similar then I could totally understand Bill's frustration and the frustration of others at not having Wyrd's blessing to pursue a 1/1.5 community. But we're not talking about that, we're talking about an edition change to a product that very much is a primary focus of the company. It's apples and oranges to me.

[Duck21]

It is a fanmade update to a game that GW had effectively abandoned, and so was done with their blessing. Blood Bowl was dead and fans revived it. That's not the same thing as fans forking the development of a game and making a game that basically does compete with the current version of the game.

What about warhammer skirmish. It was a fan made supplement which ended up being printed by Games Workshop.

[Dracomax]

I do not work for Wyrd, but I suspect they do not really worry too much about losing the theoretical business of a group that has already said it won't be buying the new edition, and by extension won't be buying any models that don't have 1.5 rules. They will lose less business by there being a 1.5 community than they will by allowing 1.75 to operate with their consent.

HoW? How, exactly, will they lose buisness by encouraging people who would not have bought another miniature from them, nor any M2E books, to buy miniatures? they have very, very little to lose, and at least a significant amount to gain. It's not like we are asking to use their art, or their fluff. It isn't like we are planning on claiming "this isn't Malifaux, and Wyrd has no stake in it."

The only thing they could possibly lose are those people who really don't want to play M2E but will for a little while because they think they are supposed to. and those people would likely not be strong customers anyway.

[HalcyonSeraph]

To be fair, anybody can take the rules and do with it what they will. They can even sell it if they want. The simple fact that is missing from this discussion is that there is zero copyright protection for rules, only creative expression. If the "Classic" crowd wants to do a 1.5+ ruleset, Wyrd can't stop them. They can talk about it as an alternative ruleset, creatively avoid names and titles, etc. This will make it awkward and often difficult, but they can do it. The only decision Wyrd has is whether or not to allow the non-profit use of their actual IP (rules not being protected, as Eric asserts). That's not an easy choice, but it needs to be clear that they actually have no legal control of their game rules under U.S. copyright.

The rules themselves would not be protected but the language used to describe them is, as is every character name and so forth.

So yes, anyone could take the rules and stats, rewrite the whole book in different words, rename every character, not use any of the art, rename/change the suits in the deck, and avoid any terms that might be trademarked (obviously Malifaux, but I don't know what else might be or could be, like the term cheating fate used to describe using a card from your hand to replace a flipped card). They also could not use the icons for , , and so forth.

That is a lot different than "Hey guys I'm just gonna take your old edition and continue working on it and use all your IP without permission, thanks"

Edited July 26, 2013 by HalcyonSeraph

[tadaka]

I really don't understand why players assume that Wyrd will, at all, continue to support M1E. TSR didn't support 1st Ed. AD&D when they moved to 2nd; Wizards didn't continue to support 3.5 when they moved to 4th (well, they didn't until the players marched en masse to Pathfinder); GW only supports 5th Ed. as far as releasing FAQs to update older Codexes to new rules...

And with every update, there was a vocal minority saying, "I'll never stop playing this edition! Support us, company-that-makes-the-game, because we give you our money!"

And, it never happens. Some of them continue holding onto the previous editions, some of them leave the game entirely, but most of them begrudgingly take the step into the newest edition (probably because everyone loves new shiny models, the smell of new books, and actually being able to find people to play with.)

TL;RD - Whether or not you're going to move into M2E or not, Wyrd has decided that M2E is where Malifaux is going, and they're most likely not going to look back. Get over it and accept that you're either leaving, playing M2E, or playing M1E without Wyrd support.

I would support that, but you know it would spring off to create Classic-Only models, as people figured out the math behind SS costs.

Eh I would say this is very untrue. D&D is a perfect example how fans can make companys back track. Wizards said 3.5 is dead as a door nail we wont support it. Wizards now prints and sells some 3.5 books as premium versions because the demand is there. They lost huge numbers of there player base with the move to 4th edition. Note how much they are taking fan direction with D&D next. I personaly think 1.5 is dead and that is not going to change. Fans can and have make gaming companys go hey wait we might not want to do this.

Bill could take another route and pull his own pathfinder

Edited July 26, 2013 by tadaka

[nix]

This has been an enjoyable thread to read, especially leading up to a conversation about the current Malifaux community vs. the past Malifaux community. Thank you to everyone who is posting here!

*grin*

For those who are interested here are some links and quotes to ponder:

Regarding Rule systems

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html

Copyright does not protect the idea for a game, its name or title, or the method or methods for playing it. Nor does copyright protect any idea, system, method, device, or trademark material involved in developing, merchandising, or playing a game. Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles. Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form.

Regarding Names

http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-protect.html

How do I copyright a name, title, slogan, or logo?

Copyright does not protect names, titles, slogans, or short phrases. In some cases, these things may be protected as trademarks. Contact the U.S. Patent & Trademark Office, 800-786-9199, for further information. However, copyright protection may be available for logo artwork that contains sufficient authorship. In some circumstances, an artistic logo may also be protected as a trademark.

As a note, I spent time on the USPTO site searching for Wyrd's trademarks, but none were able to be located. Then again, I am notoriously bad at performing searches. *grin*

Hopefully this is helpful and contributes to clarifying some of the assumptions that have sprung up in this post.

[Helm]

Bloody hell, no.

Please, please, just no.

[Sobek]

zFiend - try as I might (and honestly, I've tried), I can't really understand why some people are so against M2E.

It happens pretty much any time a game goes to a new edition, for one of two reasons. Either they're 1) stuck in their ways, used to the current game, and simply don't want to change, or 2) They're upset that their stuff isn't the strongest, most broken stuff in the new edition. Usually a combination of both from what I've seen.

[Judgeman]

It happens pretty much any time a game goes to a new edition, for one of two reasons. Either they're 1) stuck in their ways, used to the current game, and simply don't want to change, or 2) They're upset that their stuff isn't the strongest, most broken stuff in the new edition. Usually a combination of both from what I've seen.

OR they feel that the newest edition isn't as fun as the original edition, which brought these players to Wyrd in the first place.

[tadaka]

How is it hard to see what people dont like about the new edition. You may not agree with them but fact is changes were made that moved the game in a new direction. They may not like the new art style, the upgrade system, lower power to soul stones, ext. There are lots of things some one may not like about the new system. Personaly I miss the hude range of tactical options. Models got steamlined old abilitys are gone. I miss that I felt like there were tons of options I could take in any game. There are less now that is a simple fact of the game. For you it may be enough but models have less abilitys so i have less options. I want a highly complex game with tons of options with every model. 2.0 Simply feels like Warmahords to me now. Most models have a couple basic abilities shared by all and then 1 or 2 one of a kind ability. Old malifaux most models had 4 or 5. It worked for me.

[tadaka]

Glad you enjoy it. Nothing wrong with that at all. I was just giving an example of what does not work for me. I am not saying that all upgrade options for games are bad. If they had left all the old upgrades available perhaps I would find the game more to my taste. Fact is they did not. I simply liked the old options better. I find the new game bland.

[mattbird]

2E is an amazing step in the right direction, makes for a MUCH better game, and I applaud Wyrd for their continued excellence!

[Zac]

Ok guys I've solved it!

If you don't like M2E play 1.5 with your friends.

Whew. That was tough.

[Dumb Luck]

Ok guys I've solved it!

If you don't like M2E play 1.5 with your friends.

Whew. That was tough.

Cheers bro. I was confused back there.

[tadaka]

Some one tried to do exactly that and got wyrd legal jargon to not try and do that in any organised way very recently.

I dont plan on playing any version. I am intrested to see how the whole 2e thing ends up panning out thus i am hanging out with free work time.

[mattbird]

Ok guys I've solved it!

If you don't like M2E play 1.5 with your friends.

Whew. That was tough.

Yes, please. But also people, stop whining about 2E.

It's not doing you or anybody else any good.

[PierceSternum]

Is it competition if everyone is buying Wyrd models?

If M2E is better and more popular people will buy it.

If some fan supported version is more popular it will still sell Wyrd models and hopefully even keep people involved that might not stay.

Is it competition to M2E? I guess possibly.

Is it competition to Wyrd? No. They get money either way if their models are supported in both versions.

[Mach_5]

Some one tried to do exactly that and got wyrd legal jargon to not try and do that in any organised way very recently.

It wasn't simply a "let's play 1.5 community" they were trying to start, it was a "Let's rewrite 1.5 and post new rules for anyone to see online" community. I can't imagine Wyrd would have an issue with a site that existed soully to bring together gamers that wanted to play 1.5.

[PierceSternum]

Ok guys I've solved it!

If you don't like M2E play 1.5 with your friends.

Whew. That was tough.

I have a better idea. Ignore this and other threads that are not about the version you want support for.

[mattbird]

First off, a continued "updated" version of 1.5 is a fool's errand and will never gain real traction.

Secondly, if it DID, it would create market confusion, and give life to the idea that 2E is somehow "flawed" (it's not).

Either, way, this 1.5 thing is a lose/lose idea all around.

[PierceSternum]

Lol.

Could never happen.

But if it did M2E would be tarnished.

Just lol.

Why is this anyone's concern other than wyrd and the classic folks?

Do you have so little faith in our new version that something that "could never work" is somehow a threat.

Play the game you want and keep advocating things you would like to see fixed and changed andd let the classic folks do the same.

Please do not feel obligated to care about classic.

[tadaka]

Funny Wizards said the same thing about pathfinder.