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Lilith M2E


caen

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Lilith 2.0 by caen

As Lilith was always one of my favourite Malifaux Master (fluff, model, playing style) it is a time to build a cornerstone of my new Lilith M2E crew.

First I will discuss the upgrades that I have chosen:

1. WICKED MINSTRESS – awesome Transfixing Gaze with Ca 8.

This upgrade will work very well with Illusionary Forest (part of my second upgrade – BECKON MALIFAUX) because of additional damage after pushing enemy model into severe terrain. And will work even better with Thirsty Mandrake, a part of third upgrade LIVING BLADE – basically additional free Ml Attack Action against model lured in proximity of Lilith by Transfixing Gaze (or other push).

2. BECKON MALIFAUX - Illusionary Forest will be great for blocking LoS, using Sudden Darkness and already mentioned additional damage.

3. LIVING BLADE – because of Ml 7 and Rg 3 – and other things already mentioned.

To additionally boost the damage output against models pushed by Transfixing Gaze I will pick Cherub as a totem – He is fast, has excellent ability Our Land boosting other models capability to interact and what is more important to me has Rise Up spell – that I will use to create 3 inch aura of severe and hazardous terrain around Lilith – so models pushed by Transfixing Gaze will suffer additional damage because of hazardous terrain. To sum up, after successfully casting Transfixing Gaze and pushing enemy model into Illusionary Forest (because of Lilith Master of Malifaux ability We do not care about LoS) within 1 inch of Lilith enemy model will suffer 1/2/3 and 1/2/4 damage flips before even Lilith make a free Ml attack from Thirsty Mandrake. Not bad for me ….

And we can feel pretty save because Lilith is sheltered by Illusionary Forest and every model trying to engage her will suffer damage from hazardous terrain.

Other models that will be part of my crew are definitely Waldgesist – they are very durable with Armour 2, Perfect Camuflage and 7 wounds, what is more can create even more Severe Terrain (Germinate – 0 action) to screen models and block charge lines.

I still do not know if Barbaros is a good choice – but this is not so important because He will be available probably only with new Lilith box – and I am perfectly happy with my metal models, to be honest I prefer metal models in skirmish games (playing multiple fractions of Warmachine and Hordes and still not possessing any non-metal models is a bit extreme – but this is my own choice).

Terrors Tots hiding (and dropping scheme markers) behind all that additionally created terrain can be a good choice to increase number of models in my crew.

Other models that I want to have in my crew are still in Closed Beta – I hope that Lilu and Lilithu will be viable choices – Vampiric theme must be in my crew - no doubts about it. I also wait for rules of Mysterious and Arcane Effigies.

Tuco is also one my favourite character – some shooting power can be helpful to add some diversity to my crew.

If I will have to stick to already Beta tested model I will proxy the Barbaros and use such crew for 45 SS:

Lilith Upgrades – 5 SS (mentioned above)

Lilith Cache (increased from 3 SS to 6 SS) – 3 SS

Herub – 3 SS

Barbaros – 10 SS

2x Waldgeist – 12 SS

3x TT – 12 SS

Total: 8 models

I am curious what big change will be between last pdf from Open Beta and rules in M2E rulebook.

What do You think about current rules and possibilities for building Lilith crew?

Edited by caen
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To be honest, I am wondering how Tuco will work out. The problem I forsee is that he will be one of the only ranged options available to Nephilim. If he stays in LOS to shoot a target, then he will be in LOS of that target. Most other crews have a lot more shootyness than the nephilim, and shootyness got a pretty decent buff in this rule set.

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If he stays in LOS to shoot a target, then he will be in LOS of that target. Most other crews have a lot more shootyness than the nephilim, and shootyness got a pretty decent buff in this rule set.

Illusionary Forest support from Lilith? :-fate to everyone shooting at him is pretty insane, assuming that he's got a halfway decent Df.

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In 1.5, I felt that Lilith was one of the least interesting Masters in the game. She could put down forests, beat stuff with her sword and... that's it. Her early Nephilim weren't much better either. The grow mechanic was tricky so aside from that you really just had a crew of melee beaters with little else to offer.

Now, I'm liking her ALOT more. She still does what she used to do very well, But now there's this whole set of push mechanics that offer alot of strategic options to her. You can throw models off objectives, into Terror Tots or Lilith for extra damage or into a Young for Feast.

Then you've got the Cherub to help with interacts, irresistable damage from Lilith's Summon the Blood upgrade and of course, the new grown mechanic.

I don't have time to go into much more detail but basically, I think Lilith now has a much deeper and more interesting playstyle than she used to. ;)

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In 1.5, I felt that Lilith was one of the least interesting Masters in the game. She could put down forests, beat stuff with her sword and... that's it. Her early Nephilim weren't much better either. The grow mechanic was tricky so aside from that you really just had a crew of melee beaters with little else to offer.

Now, I'm liking her ALOT more. She still does what she used to do very well, But now there's this whole set of push mechanics that offer alot of strategic options to her. You can throw models off objectives, into Terror Tots or Lilith for extra damage or into a Young for Feast.

Then you've got the Cherub to help with interacts, irresistable damage from Lilith's Summon the Blood upgrade and of course, the new grown mechanic.

I don't have time to go into much more detail but basically, I think Lilith now has a much deeper and more interesting playstyle than she used to. ;)

Please, why start again a WAR about what is better: M2E or v1.5. Why We have to compare the two editions?

IMO it is better to focus on what we have in Lilith arsenal now that looking back ....

Have You find other than proposed in first post Upgrade Combination for Lilith?

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Please, why start again a WAR about what is better: M2E or v1.5. Why We have to compare the two editions?

The gentleman didn't compare two editions, he compared the flexibility of a single Master and a tiny model pool over two editions. It was a nice framing device to open the post, not starting a "WAR". He then proceeded to name six different tactics that Lilith can throw out on the table, so the focus was certainly on Lilith's capabilities.

Personally, I've been trying to think of ways to avoid the 3SS Alraune tax on Lilith, and rather than coming up with specific combos or lists I've been trying to remain flexible; it's more difficult to Theoryfaux effectively now than it was in times past. Illusionary Forest seems a must, as it can completely block LOS (and so enemy Auras!), slow enemy movement and provide cover to Neverborn Shooting. With this in mind, I'd take a Beckoner or two and keep them as an effectively immovable shooting force with Lilith's support.

The Beckoners also provide Lure, and Wicked Mistress is essentially another Lure. It's in, and so's Teddy; he can happily Flurry once an enemy has been yanked across the entire board.

Finally, Lilith doesn't seem to be putting out too much damage if she's busy controlling enemy models and throwing up Forests. Let's give her a partner to actually kill things that get Lured somewhere other than to Teddy. Taelor's coming along with Nexus of Power and Fears Given Form; Nexus of Power makes Taelor near-unkillable (Hard to Kill stops the attack killing her, Nexus puts her back up to 3 Wounds if she spent a SS in defense) and Fears Given Form is a hilarious answer to potential objective stealers and swarm lists. Lilith can use Tangle Shadows and Transfixing Gaze to drop her wherever necessary.

My housemate and I have been playing at 50SS. I'm not going to speculate on a whole list (to my mind it's near-meaningless without seeing the actual terrain and Strategy for each side, not to mention the Scheme pool), but here's the "core" Crew that I've suggested;

Lilith (Beckon Malifaux, Wicked Mistress) -1SS

Taelor (Fears Given Form, Nexus of Power) 13 SS

Teddy 11 SS

2x Beckoners 14SS

5-7SS in pocket, 8-6SS extra models.

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I would be interested in running a list based on Black blood pustules, the abilty to deal unblockable area damage is pretty good.

I think there is also a good chance to make good use of Rapid growth, especially with things like the bonus attacks from Living blade pairing it up with models with the for the Brood ability and pounce. I've yet to try it though

But I would probably agree with you on my most likely tooling up of Lileth.

The rest of the list I am much more flexable about.

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Nasty tactics!

Only if she gets positioned right, I'm afraid. First time I tried, I sent Taelor after the wrong target; she got her (wo)man, but found herself woefully out of position for the rest of the game. Too much playing off the table rather than on the table led to my 13SS invincible model never taking a single hit.

Hopefully using Lilith to drop her in place will make her much more threatening!

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Mobility is Taleor problem - and as You Helm already noticed Lilith can solve this problem using Tangle Shadows.

So, we are looking for another Hard to Kill Henchmen or Enforcer available for Neberborn - HtK and Nexus of Power combination is very powerfull.

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I have a disenting oppinion.

I feel that 1.5 Lilith had a lot more flexability than most people realized. I feel that core mechanic changes of 2.0 have hurt Lilith (and Peredita) more than most every other master due to the effective loss of speed by giving all the masters 3 ap. I feel her tankyness has gone down considerably as her defense (while admittedly still high) is lower and the change to soul stones made her much less survivable. I also feel that in almost every game I play with her I will be giving up 3 stones for the living blade upgrade. I can't imagine a reason not to take it, and given the Nephilims knew found ability to push people around so much why not take advantage with free attacks?

As a long time Lilith player I am completely unsatisfied with how the growth mechanic has been shown. As are most of the other people judging by comments in the beta forum before it was closed. (An aside, I wish Wyrd would have kept the forum open so we could continue discussion with the last set of rules)

And the fact that the people in this thread are discussing using Teddy and Taelor for a minion to do damage for Lilith (when she should be doing a lot in the first place) instead of the Mature Nephilim and Young Nephilim, shows to me that the game designers did not do a great job of matching minions to their intended master.

/Rantover

I still like 2.0 and will still play it; but I will probably lean more towards other masters now. Which is a shame as Lilith is my favorite and has consitantly been so since I started several years ago.

---------- Post added at 02:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:35 PM ----------

I would be interested in running a list based on Black blood pustules, the abilty to deal unblockable area damage is pretty good.

I hope the black blood shaman has an ability to do something like this. Like an ability to detonate nephilim and do damage to enemies based on the remaining health of the nephilim killed. Detonate a 4 wound tot and deal 2 wounds, a 2 wound tot for 1 wound, a 10 wound mature for 5 wounds, etc.

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And the fact that the people in this thread are discussing using Teddy and Taelor for a minion to do damage for Lilith (when she should be doing a lot in the first place) instead of the Mature Nephilim and Young Nephilim, shows to me that the game designers did not do a great job of matching minions to their intended master.

As the person who brought up both Teddy and Taelor, those are the models I've tested because those are the models I own from 1.5. Although someone bought me the Lilith model before the 2.0 beta came out, I never really ended up using her because she didn't seem (to me; this is only my opinion!) to have the flexibility of the likes of Zoraida.

As you mention in your post, the ability of Nephilim to push models around synergises really well with both the likes of Tots and the new Lilith. The whole crew seems built to work off each other and the Lilith boxed set is the only new box I'm looking forward to buying; I certainly want to try chucking helpless Guild plebs into a swarm of ravenous Tots. As someone who can't bring themself to proxy anything, I'm going to be teleporting Taelor around until then.

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I'm not griping because they changed how the game works, I'm griping because they completely changed how her feel is.

Honestly, it started with the release of her avatar in 1.5 when she went from "mother of monsters" to "mother of Wiccans...Walgeists" I had a hard time figuring out how that was anything other than a ploy to sell more waldgeists, which I assume did not sell as well as the newer models due to outdated rules. (Despite what I think are two of the best sculpts of 1.5)

Her 2.0 rules have basically regulated the whole "mother of monsters" theme into a poorly designed "upgrade" which will realistically never be taken on Lilith because it wouldn't be as good as the Lilith-only upgrades it would take the place of. Also, why doesn't it work with master of malifaux? That just seems wrong. Now, it's place as an upgrade for Barbaros, or for a Mature nephilim? Maybe.

I guess I just can't really figure out what Wyrd wants from her.

---------- Post added at 05:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:32 PM ----------

As you mention in your post, the ability of Nephilim to push models around synergises really well with both the likes of Tots and the new Lilith. The whole crew seems built to work off each other and the Lilith boxed set is the only new box I'm looking forward to buying; I certainly want to try chucking helpless Guild plebs into a swarm of ravenous Tots. As someone who can't bring themself to proxy anything, I'm going to be teleporting Taelor around until then.

I like Taelor a lot actually and have used her both with Lilith and with Rasputina in 1.5. I think she compliments the Nephilim very well because of her tankyness; which the nephilim (aside from Lilith herself) typically do not have. While she does not have the speed of the nephilim, she makes up for it with a 3 inch melee range and with Lilith's ability to teleport her. (Which I believe you mentioned earlier)

To be completey fair to Wyrd, I really like how Lilith synergizes with the nephilim now. They did a good job of this. I just hope they work out something for the growth mechanic.

Edited by micahwc
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I always thought her Avatar form was an expression of her as "Master of Malifaux," that the land and the trees themselves bend to her will...and I personally tend to think of Waldgeists as monsters.

I have yet to play with Lilith in 2.0, as, much like Helm above, I didn't find her that interesting (and have never liked the design of her model), and I don't like proxying. I have, however, played against her, and got nice and walloped. That game left me wanting to buy her box (that, and she and the Dreamer are the only Neverborn leaders I don't own).

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I always thought her Avatar form was an expression of her as "Master of Malifaux," that the land and the trees themselves bend to her will...and I personally tend to think of Waldgeists as monsters.

QUOTE]

I will buy the new box as well if it's available as an online release during Gencon, mostly because I want more tots and I really like Barbaros. I can't wait to see what's available for Gencon.

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I'm not griping because they changed how the game works, I'm griping because they completely changed how her feel is.

Honestly, it started with the release of her avatar in 1.5 when she went from "mother of monsters" to "mother of Wiccans...Walgeists" I had a hard time figuring out how that was anything other than a ploy to sell more waldgeists, which I assume did not sell as well as the newer models due to outdated rules. (Despite what I think are two of the best sculpts of 1.5)

Her 2.0 rules have basically regulated the whole "mother of monsters" theme into a poorly designed "upgrade" which will realistically never be taken on Lilith because it wouldn't be as good as the Lilith-only upgrades it would take the place of. Also, why doesn't it work with master of malifaux? That just seems wrong. Now, it's place as an upgrade for Barbaros, or for a Mature nephilim? Maybe.

Yeah, I guess I'm "fortunate" enough not to have that issue; having not played her in 1.5 and never having considered playing Nephilim, I haven't experienced anything she's lost in the change. Although even considering that, I had trouble figuring out what was going on with that Avatar.

I guess Lilith was always a bit of a complex concept; Mother of Monsters going on, except those Monsters were always the Nephilim, which were kind of demon things that evolved like Pokémon with a vampiric edge or just transformed direct from corrupted humans; Master of Malifaux, so terrain sort of obeyed her, and she could teleport for... some reason? On top of that, a melee beatstick, which I guess works if you consider her as a mother hunting for her children-although why the Mature Nephilim didn't just do that, I don't know.

As someone new to her, I quite like the modularity of her theme now. Her card has elements of all of the above in a subtle way (I want to see how or if Tangle Shadows helps with Growing) but can lean very heavily on any aspect of her theme. Plus i really like the idea of someone else going out and doing the hunting for once.

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I'm not griping because they changed how the game works, I'm griping because they completely changed how her feel is.

Yeah, pretty much complete agreement with this - even with games where I've won with Lilith 2.0, she (and Nephilim as a whole) have not been especially fun to play.

Previously, Lilith had several strengths - she was fast, she was tough, she was dangerous in melee and she had great synergy with other nephilim. She no longer feels fast compared to other masters, she feels very fragile if she ventures out of cover, and she needs to invest in an expensive upgrade to really feel like a melee master. She lost a lot of her support abilities (Earthquake, Alluring, Brood Mother, Blood from Stone), and all she received in return was a rather weak Root ability. She can regain some very strong support abilities - Transfixing Gaze, Illusionary Forest, Black Blood Pustule - but again, only via upgrades.

I do get that we can't count on the M2E versions being exact copies of their previous versions. But it feels like a shame that the previous Lilith had a variety of styles of play, while the new version is so geared towards one approach (hiding in terrain), and so reliant on upgrades in order to have any worthwhile actions at all.

Couple that with the Nephilim as a whole having a very difficult to use growth ability, while losing speed and range in an environment where most lists gained speed and range, and... well, I'm just hoping that the remaining Nephilim (Shaman, etc) will help make them more viable/enjoyable again. They have some good themes running through them, focused around hunting as a pack and pushing enemies around - I've just found it very difficult to actualy make those tricks work when it is so hard for them to actually get to the enemy alive, and frustrating that M2E, which I had hoped would be presenting more flexibility and options in list design, has left the Nephilim with so many limitations on their crew and their playstyle.

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I'm really surprised to hear that so many people seemed to use Blood from Stone in V1. I think in all my Lileth games I used it once, and regretted it next activation.

And without that, lileth had almost no direct interaction with growing Nephlim. At no point did I ever feel she was the Mother of Monsters from either her rules or the stories with her in.

Yes she picked up blood from the dead, just like all the other Nephlim, and she did kill several things, but I often felt I had to hold her back if I was going that way as she would be able to kill more than 1 thing a turn, and I'd be wasting the blood.

Obviously others felt differently. I'm going to try and not refer back to V1 anymore in this thread though as its intent seems to be as a way to use her in V2, rather than a comparison between changes.

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She can regain some very strong support abilities - Transfixing Gaze, Illusionary Forest, Black Blood Pustule - but again, only via upgrades

So buy the upgrades :)

I've found that people who describe upgrades as "regaining" abilities are the same people who are invariably disappointed with M2E masters. A paradigm shift is needed.

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So buy the upgrades :)

I've found that people who describe upgrades as "regaining" abilities are the same people who are invariably disappointed with M2E masters. A paradigm shift is needed.

I'm actually pretty happy with most other Masters that I've tried out in M2E - and am a big fan of the upgrade system in general. I just don't think that upgrades should be an excuse for not giving a model worthwhile abilities in the first place, and that Lilith in particular suffers from having so much offloaded onto upgrades (both for herself and for the Nephilim as a whole) that it proves problematic.

I'm not saying she's unplayable, by any means. But playing her in M2E has been pretty regularly disappointing, at least for me. It isn't even about specific abilities being absent, mind you - other Masters have had abilities vanish or change and are still quite exciting or effective in M2E. But she - and the Nephilim as a whole - have had many of their strengths diminished, especially compared to how most other models have changed, and for me that does seem unfortunate.

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That I can understand I have boughts of that mostly with mei feng,. Still Like her still will play her but she's different and I had really grown found of the way her and her crew worked in 1.5 and 2.0 has a harder time bringing the fullness of what she was on the table at least for me. So I can see where your at with her.

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I just don't think that upgrades should be an excuse for not giving a model worthwhile abilities in the first place, and that Lilith in particular suffers from having so much offloaded onto upgrades (both for herself and for the Nephilim as a whole) that it proves problematic.

I had to admit that i can not imagine playing lilith without upgrades - She almost have nothing to offer: Spells with Ca 5 are very problematic tu use, and her combat abilities are nothing special.

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