sexist???

[Sybarite]

Are you a reddit feminist? There's a subtle difference between being concerned about sexism and being a froth-at-the-mouth-proud-Womyn person.

No i don't believe that i am but i thought the comment was aimed at me.

[Poko]

No i don't believe that i am but i thought the comment was aimed at me.

Not everything is in this world.

[scuttlebut]

I think there's already a place on the internet for this kind of chat:http://en.reddit.com/r/MensRights/

Because pretending we're persecuted as men is fun, right?

[Gorbad]

people that worry about sexism in miniature games, to me, are the same as people who worry about if I should be able to own a handgun. This is MURICA'

Even leaving out the gun aspect, that's just nonsense. We are hardly in a situation where equality issues and discrimination are not problems for millions so yes, we should think about how our culture portrays people because ultimately that's what defines acceptable and expected behaviour. Dismissing it as just a game or just gamer culture is entirely missing the point. Especially since there seems to be a subsection of gamers who have massive problems with this. So discussing the issues are important. Doesn't mean you can't do say a sexy looking miniature, but dismissing it as unimportant because its just gaming is just mindlessly perpetuating harmful stereotypes.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Everyone step away from the keyboard and check your privileges and no one needs to get hurt.

I wish my thank you button still worked.

[ThePandaDirector]

To be honest, it is threads like this that highlight just how great this community is (or can be). It's grown over time, but it still manages to not tear itself apart - a rare quality.

I totally agree with Sway's assessment of Avatar 'Tina. I'm not a fan of the quality of the sculpt, but the concept is very engaging. Even if Justice were less sexualised I'd find her very unengaging because she's got nothing to her beyond being a beatstick of justice (she's like a female Javert, but without Valjean she's nothing). I find 'Tina very interesting, though I'm not a huge fan of the Tyrants. Being naked in her avatar both suggests strength and vulnerability. She's in the fetile position, which makes her look weak, but she's naked while it's freezing cold, which suggests immunity and resistance; to cold (which has connotations of isolation, death, loss/lack of feeling/empathy). Like others I see her as being in control of the ice golem and it being a manifestation of her subconcious will/memory (a bit like the what's-their-name in Harry Potter). I think it is the weak point of the piece, because it has no flare or connection to her personality. Hopefully the plastics will do it more justice.

As for the rest, my priority is variety. I want to see feminine gymnastic men, I want to see women built like brick houses, beautiful obese people, midgets and dwarves, all skin colours, all "handicaps", and as many others as possible without reducing them to unengaging show pieces (for equality or stereoypes).

Malifaux has made a decent start, considering it will always be a more stylistic fantasy game, but we need more-

Pandas first though.

[Dracomax]

Honestly, I'd agree that Lady J is arguably the most sexist character. She a sterotypical "tough" girl with very little characterization. and the model is cheesecake city. There's nothing that makes her a good character, no flaws for her to rise above(even the vlind thing is just kind of ignored in all the fiction I've seen. it's as much of a sexist cliche as the helpless waif who cant rescue herself--and in real life, both types of people exist.

In Lady J's case, it's probably because there isn't enough backstory or fiction starring her. with a bit more to flesh her out, she'd be a better character. Rasputina is a pretty full character herself, and th emodels show it.

[ThePandaDirector]

I think it would be awesome to give Lady Justice a nemesis, but someone who is actually a good character (like a Rezzer turned Arcanist). She really is Javert - the untoppable force of blind justice - but she's only as complex as the injustice she fights, and so far that's been pretty b&w. She needs her own Jean Valjean (aka Prisoner 24601!), someone who challenges her brand of justice and gives her blindness a more metaphorical significance. In terms of the larger story, this nemesis could be inadvertingly (or intentionally) unbalancing the natural order of things and she is trying to restore it (at all costs).

Mei Feng is one of my favourite characters (only recently read her fluff), and other great women are 'Tina, Misaki, Kaeris, Abuela, Molly, etc. For men, I will always love Marcus, and the Hoff of course =D

[The Godlyness]

I Got the Le mis reference's. and wow just wow, how unmanly is that? is that sexist? or is the reverse true that i am manly for watching that? or is sexism as a whole blown out of proportion for no reason cept to cause an argument. Lets go to marketing, Sex sells. Having fat naked men on the cover of a magazine prolly will sell less than fat naked females. (both will sell. To each their own)

Now to say a Wargame is sexist is by itself just Digging for an argument, just for an argument. If you think one fictional character is being unduly punished in the fluff, or treated as a sex symbol or what ever else, you looking way to far into it. were talking about fiction here. not real people. same with books. Does this reflect on the imagination or quality of wyrd itself? of course not. i doubt they looked that deep into it, or if they did your on the same wave length as them.

look into this statement, every person who reads it thinks of something else it just what it is. Black midget horse "Relations"

[Jonas Albrecht]

Now to say a Wargame is sexist is by itself just Digging for an argument, just for an argument.

No it isn't.

[The Godlyness]

would you rather i say Work of fiction?

[Jonas Albrecht]

would you rather i say Work of fiction?

I would rather people not believe that seeing sexism in gaming is just argument hunting.

[Forar]

Here's someone else's thoughts on the matter that I feel may be relevant and enlightening to some;

Well, here's the thing. It's not so much about any one piece of literature/art having a direct effect (although that DOES happen on occasion). Like, I feel like you're conceptualizing this as "the idea is if a guy watches one sexist movie he will go home and slap his girlfriend", and that's not really it.

Imagine there is a mosaic made up of one small piece of tile. Except by definition that's not really a mosaic, is it? A mosaic has to make up a bigger picture, made from smaller things.

But let's say five more tiny tiles are added to the mosaic. Then twenty more. A hundred. A thousand. Ten thousand. Now you have enough tiles to make a mosaic. Any one of those tiles is nothing more than a little bit of colored ceramic, and yet when you put them together you can form a definitive picture.

That's what our society is like. That's what our ideas of "normality" and gender relations and race relations and heteronormativity are like. They are built out of a million tiny things. So maybe ONE video game featuring Syldanian Six-Boobed Slut Warriors or whatever will not have much effect on society. The thing is, there isn't just one video game like that, and that isn't the only place the idea that women are objectified. When people criticize Hillary Clinton's appearance (because male politicians are such hotties, right? Not bloated, liver-spotted, fat old men) . . . that is a little piece of tile. When a comic artist draws kidnapped male Justice League characters in tied up but non-sexy poses, while the kidnapped female Justice League characters are tied up like they're getting geared up for a video session of "Bondage Sluts III" . . . that is a little piece of tile. When someone tells a sexist joke . . . that's a little piece of tile. Look in the comments section of any online news story about a woman being raped and you will find more little bits of tile.

And the defense is always "Well, MY piece of tile isn't at fault! It's Society!" It is indeed society that predefines the mosaic, based on the piece of tile that were placed by previous generations; but it's the individual pieces of gossip, art, expectations that fill in that mosaic. Unlike a real mosaic, old bits fall off quite frequently, forgotten by a new generation. Sometimes they are replaced by a new piece that is about the same as the old one; sometimes they are replaced by a new one. Sometimes there's a lot of new pieces at once, like in the 1960s when a bunch of activists took hammers, beat the crap out of that mosaic, and stuck a bunch of new pieces on to radically alter the picture. The point is, if no one starts changing those tiles, small as they may be, the overarching image will never change.

[Mehter]

I'm not really sure what this thread is trying to accomplish.

[Gujozec]

Making a fuss for no particular reason...

[Sway]

This thread is trying to have an open, honest, and safe conversation about the degree of sexism found in the fluff and game of Malifaux.

If you don't understand why that is an important conversation to have every once in a while, I would suggest you read Forar's post right above yours. He quoted an excellent explanation of why it's important to discuss the degree of sexism found in any sufficiently popular piece of media.

If you still think this conversation is not worth having, I would suggest you navigate to a different thread on the Wyrd Boards and not click on the "sexism?" thread again. No one is forcing you to.

[Poko]

I'm not really sure what this thread is trying to accomplish.

First World people discussing First World problems.

[GKP]

I'm not quite sure how I feel about this. On one, sure sexism is a problem, it needs to be fixed, we have to make a change etc. etc. But on the other hand, this is a miniature Wargame aimed at mostly adult males. While I acknowlege female gamers, the majority are men.

I question whether it is productive to be having this conversation at all?

[Poko]

But on the other hand, this is a miniature Wargame aimed at mostly adult males.

For all my snarky comments, this is a veeeeeeery slippery slope of an argument.

[decker_cky]

It also completely misses the issue. Supposing wargames were targeted exclusively at males, that doesn't make sexism any less sexist. Certainly there's likely to be less complaints about it, but sexist is still sexist.

[Forar]

Women are making up greater proportions of several gaming communities, and as the wealth discrepancy decreases (slowly, if I'm not mistaken), they will continue to represent a greater and greater untapped (oh god what a poor choice of words) market. Recognizing not just what might appeal to them, but what might be unappealing to them is a solid business move. And cynicism aside, there is something to be said for companies that are willing to do the right thing regardless of the bottom line.

Look at the gay rights movement. While for many people and groups it's becoming 'the in thing to do', there was a period where it was still highly controversial (as in, less than 1/2 of americans supported the cause, at least in polling done), and yet some massive companies made It Gets Better videos. It's still a highly contentious issue for certain people and states, and yet some utterly absurdly large companies have publicly challenged legislators to fix what they now see as something that is a problem.

And it's always been a problem, at least in terms of our lifespan. And it probably always will be. Civil rights are slow to change, and even when you legislate things in a more open and inclusive direction, there will be decades of simmering distaste and resentment.

Does this mean that Wyrd should champion equal rights with gay minority handicapped masters (... make Hoffman native american... hrm....) and abandon even thinking of making attractive female sculpts? No, I don't think anyone's going to think that'll ever happen.

But changes can be made. The status quo does not have to remain the way things are forever, and even small steps can have larger ramifications. A lot of it is just being cognizant that the issue even exists, and not simply dismissing it out of hand.

It really doesn't take all that much to realize that just because something isn't an issue for me (white, hetero, north american male that I am), doesn't mean it isn't an issue for someone. Surely we can all see that much?

[GKP]

It just seems like an unnecessary argument to me. You're taking something fun and simple, and making it into a battle ground. I highly doubt the Malifaux model designers, fluff writers, and concept artists are sitting in their office, twirling their evil, women hating mustaches and shoving their agenda into Malifaux. We play with toy soldiers. The sculpts have limitations.

[Forar]

It just seems like an unnecessary argument to me. You're taking something fun and simple, and making it into a battle ground.

Incorrect. People are expressing an opinion about sexism in gaming, and how it might relate to Wyrd's products. Personally I think there are much bigger offenders in the market, but that just means a few improvements would vault them that much higher in regard.

I highly doubt the Malifaux model designers, fluff writers, and concept artists are sitting in their office, twirling their evil, women hating mustaches and shoving their agenda into Malifaux.

Please point out anyone who is insinuating this to be the case. I must've missed it, and I'd hate for an innocent strawman to take a hit meant for someone else. It doesn't have to be about 'hating' women to perpetuate the status quo. And the status quo ain't so hot.

We play with toy soldiers. The sculpts have limitations.

Do those limitations require that nigh-every female figure in a product line be almost supernaturally lithe and remarkably averse to clothing? Because, AGAIN, Wyrd isn't exactly breaking ground in how bad things can be (a couple of other products certainly come to mind), but that doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement.

A company is not full of mind readers. If the community doesn't tell Wyrd how they feel, Wyrd will never know. Hence, thread. Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

Edit: and I'm not even joking. I've brought my thoughts on the matter up to Wyrd directly, and have been in turn told that, in the name of equity, all Masters going forward will be nude. Not quite problem solved, but it's a start.

... I'm sure the naked masters ARE a joke, but point being, this conversation has been had before, and I'm sure it'll be had again and again.

[G. Footman]

Nicodem counts as undead(but isn't), not robotic.

He has a ribotic leg is what I think he meant

8

[GKP]

Well then, I shall acknowlege four things,

1: my first post in the topic was not exactly worded in the best manner.

2: regarding the straw man, hyperbole for the sake of argument is completely legitamate.

3: I would disagree with the idea that the majority of female models in the game are averse to clothing. Some examples would be Criid, Rasputina, and the Freikorps Librarian, for models I am specifically familiar with,

4: I would argue, but I can only see this thread getting more toxic, and I don't think I will continue with it.