Rezzers.... Overpowered?

[Sonova]

Coming from more than a year playing rezzers, I can see them (to some, not all) being OP at times. Izamu is redonkulous. Belles are a steal for what they do. 3ss really fast obj grabbers (NT's and NP's). But you have to remember, the game is the strategy and the schemes. I noticed in the OP that he took pretty badass things to start with. Given the right situation, Killjoy can and will wreck a lot. Kirai and Yan Lo are definitely on top in terms of game power while McM, Seamus and Nico all kinda sit about equal below them in terms of what they do. Granted, what I'm saying right now will probably change entirely once M2E is released. Super excited for that, they are changing a good number of things that should be changed, and it is in a positive direction. inb4 nope.

While your meta may see rezzers as overpowered, you gotta realize that its the player not the game.

I would actually argue that Nico is the top Resser master. He is just harder to use than Yan Lo.

For one thing his ability to take any undead without penalty is pretty nice. Decay is awesome as both a nuke and a heal. His 10" aura of undead dominance goes nice with any undead and makes Toshiro truly ridiculous. He is also pretty ridiculous to get off the table because of the mindless zombie meatshields.

You just need to resist the urge to pop Reanimate every turn. And if you do you better be reaching for the Rogue Necromancy cause that having 3 attacks worth of paired goodness pop up in their face will generally ruin someones day.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Nicodem is ok, but not if you try to run him as a summoner. As a control model, he's pretty good, but his biggest, and it is huge, weakness is that his best abilities target WP, and through the undead he has no way t get around Immune to influence, and he is wk 3, so he has a much harder tim projecting his power across the table.

Yan Lo can actually play Nicodem's control game, because he can get access to the exac same spell Nicodem is using, and he can play it better because every weakness Nicodem has, Yan Lo doesn't or can overcome through Chi Collection.

Kirai's speed, and the models she has synergy with leave Nicodem way behind. Her problem is certain top tier masters, because of her own mechanics, eat her for breakfast. Pandora delights in seeing Kirai across the table.

[Pierowmaniac]

So, here's the story. In my meta, I'm getting a little ostracized. No-one wants to play my crews, calling Overpowered.

I run Nico and Yan Lo (+ Molly if she counts).

I bought the Nico box first, then immediately Killjoy and Bette, some canines (whom I never use anymore), zombies, 2 vultures, and a Flesh Golem.

Right there is where it started. My, as new as I am to Malifaux, friend running Lady J, ran her up into a dead dog, insta killed it, and summoned Killjoy. He died in the ensuing battles with judge and Lady J, but so did she. He called the game soon after. Now I know it simply could be my meta and friends are bad sports, but it gets worse from there.

After buying a few more packs (Yan Lo, Molly, Toshiro, Yin, Izamu, aNico) I've found that the combos and strats I have to choose from to be completely overwhelming to my opponents.

When running Nico I start with 3 models, and soon have far more than my opponent. And Cb9 PZ's are nothing to sneeze at.

When running Yan, I crew Molly, Yin, Toshi and a Pz or two. Just plain powerful.

I've gone against Lady J (many times), Perdita, Zorida, Collette (don't get me started how easy she is), Kaeris, and the Viks, winning all, most of the time. Usually my opponents will get 1-2 victory pts (me 0), while my crew is heating up, then call the game (due to time) or simply give due to "Overpowered."

The time thing is also annoying to me. I try to go as fast as possible during my activations, but with so much going on, it's my opponents that are the ones taking a while, usually to change directives every time I summon or do something new to them. I've not played a game of Mali that took less than 2hrs.

Even more so, I've been feeling bored (due to lack of competition) with the 40+ models I do have and am thinking of picking up a new crew, but I like rezzers so much that Leveticus is the only master that sounds appealing enough to drop another $50-$70 on.

So, with all this, I'm going to the online community to get a bit of perspective of other metas. Is this also the general consensus with you guys? Are the Rezzers actually overpowered? What do you all think?

Whats not really 100% clear is if their is a significant difference in player skill level? None of your opponents crews should be a pushover if played correctly, so we can only assume you've probably picked up the game much faster than your opponents, in which case you might want to just take your foot off the accelerator slightly and let them catch up with you.

[IntereoVivo]

Whats not really 100% clear is if their is a significant difference in player skill level? None of your opponents crews should be a pushover if played correctly, so we can only assume you've probably picked up the game much faster than your opponents, in which case you might want to just take your foot off the accelerator slightly and let them catch up with you.

This. In the current edition of Malifaux it is very easy to make the game a drag for people who are not as competitive or as knowledgable as you. Playing the game in a way your opponents enjoy is worthwhile as it ensures you a group of dedicated opponents. It is also great for becoming better at the game since winning with the underpowered models takes more skill then winning with the overpowered models.

[PeregrineFalcon]

Also as a word of caution...If your opponents don't want to play against Nico or Yan Lo for being OP, then playing Leveticus will most certainly make them rage quit. There are many times that I've had Leveticus essentially take on the entire enemy crew alone and still come out on top.

QFTT, was going to say the same thing.

I suggest keeping with what you're doing first. Malifaux is a game, and you should feel comfortable winning!

2nd: Malifaux is a game, while you are winning, help your opponent understand WHAT you are doing and WHY! I find as a Henchman and just as a friendly gamer, I have a hard time doing something to my opponents that they are completely unaware of. Sure it's on MY card, but are they familiar with the card, and what the minion can do? I will usually ask my opponent things like, "have you seen this crew before", "do you know what this model is capable of", "you know if you kill that PZ sitting on a treasure marker, he can just Slow To Die and (1) Interact to take the objective". Talking through and cueing your opponent to what and why you may be doing something doesn't give you anymore chance of winning, but at a minimum levels the playing field for lesser experienced players and offers a more positive play experience for your opponent. You goal should be to TEACH your opponents how to beat your crews if you're always winning, and then after a little while this give YOU a new challenge to figure out how to beat them again with only adding/swapping a few models.

Hope that makes sense and is useful.

P.S. Seriously, Levi is awesome, but if people already feel like they are having a negative play experience against your rezzer crews, Levi will guarantee you have no one to play with your local meta. Good luck and let us know how it goes!

[Salteris]

In what way? What makes it so easy for you but so difficult for them to achieve objectives?

For me, I've found my masters to be fairly resilient, especially with many protective models in front them. With that I've run Bodyguard and typically Grudge or Death after Death if running Nico. Grudge because most of my crews are melee centric. Strategies change, but I'm fairly good at playing the scheme. I don't know about my opponents.

There are lots of combinations of models across the factions that are considered powerful. What makes this one harder than any other to face?

Molly with TF->14 and Anathema is pretty solid. And Yin just in the middle of things makes a mess. The first time I ran this was in King of the Hill, and if not running away my opponents (Collette) models just couldn't score VP's against me.

So, if I'm reading this right, your crew takes a while to get up and running. In a tournament, if the time runs out and your opponent had 1-2VPs and you have 0VPs, that means you've lost. Other than that though, I'll echo what others have already said with regards to other people's experience and, more importantly, expectations of Malifaux. Maybe point your regular opponents in the direction of these forums or the Pull My Finger Wiki to get some help on beating you.

As a regular Colette player, I don't think your Yan Lo list is OP at all.

I've tried this... maybe they aren't competitive as me. Also, we're not running tournaments, when I talk about time, I'm mainly talking about it as an excuse. For me I can see, even if my opponent is winning the game, they look like they are losing the battle. I don't know, maybe I do need to think about how I play the game. But, sometimes after turn 3 or so it being 1-2 hours into the game, they just give. They might have 2vp's while I have none, but they look at the mass of summoned creatures I've created, or I've shut down their master with rigor, 2 turns in a row (blowing SS's on the cast and being flipping lucky), and I think they just throw in the towel.

Then seek a better way to play. Either find another group or help improve the one you are in (or just play Vassal games against the best players you can find).

Nope. Not at all.

Thanks for the tips guys, I didn't think Rezzers were Overpowered, but I wanted some feedback on the issue.

[Nekromanced]

Its all about how people play the game. Nicodem does break the game with Rafkin if you can't get rid of his corpse counters early. No one likes seeing 6+ flesh constructs in two turns to put them up 56+ stones in a35 stone game. Just like Pandora can break the game rather easily with stitched together and Collodi. Seamus just gets left in the....dirt....compared to other rez masters.

[Mr. Goggles]

Seamus just gets left in the....dirt....compared to other rez masters.

...

[Orboros]

Replace Over with Under and it's 2012 all over again!

[Salteris]

And Collette is easy to me because I rush rigor on her and shut her down. As Collette players how would you combat this?

[Forar]

In my usual playgroup of 7 players, we have (accounting for people who have at least a couple of masters from multiple factions) 3 Neverborn, 2 Arcanists, 2 Guild, and 1 Outcast amongst us. Strangely, most people express some interest in a Resser crew or two, but it's really only amounted to people grabbing that single one as a side project.

Basically, I can't really speak from experience yet.

However, at the same time, looking through the Adepticon and Gencon threads, it does appear that Ressers (along with Guild) aren't often placing very highly. Now, given time constraints that doesn't necessarily mean they're the weakest, it might just be that they don't perform as well as other masters/factions with a clock ticking away in the background, but I'd be hard pressed to call the faction 'overpowered' at the moment.

Though the first person I face that turns the Strong Arm Suit into a Spirit is going to be spoken to sternly. >.< (I've heard this is a thing... is it a thing? It'd better not be a thing...)

[CRC]

And Colette is easy to me because I rush rigor on her and shut her down. As Collette players how would you combat this?

Staying outside 10"?

Getting initiative?

Not losing the flip? ( 7 vs 6 is decent, but not reliable)

My SS get a , yours don't?

Also, how does Nicodem handle a pair of Coryphee in the face?

Getting shutdown by enemy casters has never been a problem for me...

[Gorbad]

And Collette is easy to me because I rush rigor on her and shut her down. As Collette players how would you combat this?

Considering it only have a 10" range and you need a 9+ :crows and I then get a willpower resists that doesn't seem like a dependable strategy. You are either getting really lucky with your cards (and being in range) or you are using a soulstones to boost a smaller :crows and I'd quite happily compete in the soulstones spending as I'm going to have more of them and I get a on them. Alternatively, just stay out of his line of sight. Collette does fine being a support master, generating soulstones and launching doves. She have no need to rush Nico at all.

[Gruesome]

Considering it only have a 10" range and you need a 9+ :crows and I then get a willpower resists that doesn't seem like a dependable strategy. You are either getting really lucky with your cards (and being in range) or you are using a soulstones to boost a smaller :crows and I'd quite happily compete in the soulstones spending as I'm going to have more of them and I get a on them. Alternatively, just stay out of his line of sight. Collette does fine being a support master, generating soulstones and launching doves. She have no need to rush Nico at all.

Nico has :crows in his Ca and Rigor is not a :crows :crows casting, so he does not need a high crow to try it.

Collette's Wp is 6 and Nico's cast is 7, so Nico has a slight advantage, actually.

[Salteris]

Rigor on Nico is just a 10+. I usually drop any 13 I have and yes, am generally lucky on the SS flip. Collette gets her on her SS flip, correct, but that's not always a sure thing. I also usually activate Nico late in the turns to make sure my opponent has burned some cards on TF flips or PZ defense flips. If he activates within 10" of her, that's 3 rigor castings... hard to deny one getting through.

Coryphee are difficult apart, but when a duet I rigor them. + properly placed PZ's can usually stop them from passing through to Nico.

It's good to have this info though. I can take it to my meta and help them to counter my crews more effectively.

[NIGHTHATER]

Salteris,

Man I hear you bud, I can't figure out why people are so afraid to say something is too strong. Even where I play among a small group, people seem leery of just saying I think this is too O.P. Has no one ever been 1 rounded by the Dreamer, or been at a tournament and seen or talked to people who quit straight up if someone was playing Hamlen. Dude I bitched about these models long before the cuddle...WHICH CAME FAR TOO LATE...and after the cuddle people were like..."oh I guess they were too strong." Ya you just have to get used to the resistence. Get ready for this one to because you will get alot of this. Master A is not overpowered because 1 model in 1 crew can kinda deal with it. I swear the mentality is a mystery to me.

NIGHTHATER

As for the rezzers being O.P. thats a little to vague you have to look at master to master.

[Gorbad]

Nico has :crows in his Ca and Rigor is not a :crows :crows casting, so he does not need a high crow to try it.

Collette's Wp is 6 and Nico's cast is 7, so Nico has a slight advantage, actually.

Apparently I can't read... Still it requires a high card and generally a soulstones if you want it to actually stick, I'm okay with that. All the rest of it still applies, and the showgirls can often pull out a fair few activation a themselves and if Nick is holding back his activation to try and land Rigor it means no Bolster Undead for most of the crew. I'm okay with that too. But mostly I'd probably deal with it by just not letting him cast it, picking off other bits of his crew and just doing schemes and strategy. Another thing to do would be to activate Collette early, get in her first activation and give herself reactivate. Even if he then does land Rigor you have already had one go with her, so that should let you accomplish some stuff (and really make Rigor harder to do). Its a nasty spell for sure, but I don't see how it would just automatically shut her down.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Gorbad

[HtUnliving]

Apparently I can't read... Still it requires a high card and generally a soulstones if you want it to actually stick, I'm okay with that. All the rest of it still applies, and the showgirls can often pull out a fair few activation a themselves and if Nick is holding back his activation to try and land Rigor it means no Bolster Undead for most of the crew. I'm okay with that too. But mostly I'd probably deal with it by just not letting him cast it, picking off other bits of his crew and just doing schemes and strategy. Another thing to do would be to activate Collette early, get in her first activation and give herself reactivate. Even if he then does land Rigor you have already had one go with her, so that should let you accomplish some stuff (and really make Rigor harder to do). Its a nasty spell for sure, but I don't see how it would just automatically shut her down.

If it hits early,it shuts anything down for atleast a turn...? And this is precisely why I would activate Nicodem early,especially if I have a high Crow at hand.

The main problem though is that,if I remember correctly,all the essential pieces of Colette's crew can gain Use Soulstones. In my experience that's a big problem to getting Rigour through (I usually Rigour stuff that don't use SS eh.Strongarm or Vanessa).

I'd probably take Molly and cast more Rigours or first debuff.

But,like CRC said,a good counter to Nico a the Duet to the face.

[Sonova]

Salteris,

Man I hear you bud, I can't figure out why people are so afraid to say something is too strong. Even where I play among a small group, people seem leery of just saying I think this is too O.P. Has no one ever been 1 rounded by the Dreamer, or been at a tournament and seen or talked to people who quit straight up if someone was playing Hamlen. Dude I bitched about these models long before the cuddle...WHICH CAME FAR TOO LATE...and after the cuddle people were like..."oh I guess they were too strong." Ya you just have to get used to the resistence. Get ready for this one to because you will get alot of this. Master A is not overpowered because 1 model in 1 crew can kinda deal with it. I swear the mentality is a mystery to me.

NIGHTHATER

As for the rezzers being O.P. thats a little to vague you have to look at master to master.

Maybe its because of the way you phrase things. I am inclined to agree with you that the Dreamer is better than he should be, but thats not because he can 1 round your entire crew. Nearly any COMBAT ORIENTED master can one round an opposing crew given either:-

a) extremely good cards

or

poor play by the opponent

So giving you the benefit of the doubt that its not your poor play that caused the 1 round trouncing, its either your opponents extremely good cards or your extremely poor cards that caused this. Luck of the draw should never figure into any declaration of OP/UP because it distorts the reality of the situation.

Why the Dreamer is better than he should be is because of the fact that you can not interact with the Dreamer (and thus LCB) while there is another Nightmare on the table. This means you are forced into having to take out all/most of the opposing crew before you have any hope of stymieing the Dreamer directly. And even then you still have to deal with LCB. And that is better resilience than any other master in the game.

IF you are complaining about the randomness of the game then perhaps a game where ALL the pieces have exactly the same properties like checkers would suit you better. If not then maybe making your point in a way that does not resemble the wailings of a petulant child would get you a more favourable response.

[Hunter-thom]

How is Nico with a 3 Inch move getting close enough to Para someone first or second turn with 3 casts... And why would you let him? I just don't understand how Colette could be a cakewalk. She has so many tricks... have You ever played against Sonnia Criid with Jack Daw? That's a challenge for Nico

[IntereoVivo]

Nico is slow, but he does have ways of getting around. Dead Rider and Belles for example.

In my experience, there is too much variability in the players and Metas to declare things broken willy-nilly. Plus, contrary to what seems to be prevailing opinion, the Internet is often wrong.

[Gruesome]

I find the creation of this thread interesting when seen through the lens of someone that has been catching up on his podcasts.

A couple of casts in particular still take great pleasure in calling out the rezzer forums for complaining about faction balance and how rezzers are weak.

In our defense, I feel like these podcasts are pretending like its still 1st half 2012 or something though... I have not seen those sorts of rumblings in quite some time. (See: Book 4 release )

Quite the contrary... A thread like this pops up.

(We are in 3rd place, in my eyes... And that's just fine. )

[phreaker187]

Someone in your meta buy Pandora and wastes you every game? Seems like a good way to start losing.

[ClayWeeks]

Coryphee are difficult apart, but when a duet I rigor them. + properly placed PZ's can usually stop them from passing through to Nico.

It's good to have this info though. I can take it to my meta and help them to counter my crews more effectively.

The Coryphee have Pass Through. I don't know how you are properly placing your Punk Zombies but you must have them in a pretty thick circle around Nico.

[Trevelyan]

Also as a word of caution...If your opponents don't want to play against Nico or Yan Lo for being OP, then playing Leveticus will most certainly make them rage quit. There are many times that I've had Leveticus essentially take on the entire enemy crew alone and still come out on top.

I play Levi and this pretty much represents my view. But as the guy on the Levi side of the table I am painfully aware of his limitations and the ways that people could easily undermine my plans. My advantage is that most players seem eager to play to my strengths.

Although I have never played as a Resser (Nico idles on my to-do list after I raided his box for parts), I have used plenty of undead minions and I imagine that Levi's attrition style is not dissimilar to that of the Ressers - gradually tearing down opposing minions and using them for spare parts so an initially small crew greatly outnumbers the opposition by Turn 3. In that situation, the people who lose the swiftest are always those who continue to throw minions at me and ignore their own Strategy and Schemes.

You can't beat someone who can turn your own minions into cannon fodder to use against you by providing them with more cannon fodder. People who are slow to learn this deserve to be beaten hard and often.

In the context of this thread, I personally find ressers laughably easy to defeat, but bless them for trying.