Free M2E stats cards in pdf format are worth fighting for .. don’t You think so?

[DeleteAccount]

I don't think there can be two whole points.

Then you lack imagination

[Gruesome]

I honestly don't see a very strong argument being presented for Wyrd giving away the stats on their models for free. Does any other successful company make all their rules available for free? That's an actual question. Has anyone on this board studied business and this particular niche market in particular enough to be willing to discuss this matter.

Not particularly "fighting" for anything, but I'll throw my 2 cents in.

I'd start with a question... What is the measure of "success" that you want to grant the companies that do not give their rules away?

I am often told that miniature gaming is such a small and niche market and that there will only ever be a small percentage of any given populace that will choose to participate.

What we can definitely say is that for the things that have been tried by the companies with the means to do so, that that seems to be true so far.

Now let me ask what companies with the means to do so have gone out of business by making a version of their rules and model stats free for download, but maintained the need to purchase them for events or to play in the stores that sell them?

Dunno... I am not familiar with any.

Its pieces of paper with numbers written on them in a world of photocopiers, scanners and bittorrent.

Free PDFs is an opportunity to MAKE NEW FRIENDS and SATISFY CURRENT ONES.

Again, I believe that there are a number of areas for which real, purchased cards ought to be necessary.

I have watched the software industry pretend for years that every illegal copy was a lost sale... Its just not true.

Think of the PDFs as shareware versions... Demos... Whatever...

They get people to use the things and learn them and if they ever want to step to the plate, they gotta pay up.

That's my 02 cents...

Personally, I am buying the new cards. I like new stuff.

[GrAYFoX]

I honestly don't see a very strong argument being presented for Wyrd giving away the stats on their models for free. Does any other successful company make all their rules available for free?

Sure, Corvus Belli with Infinity.

Personally I'm about options and would like:

• Paid faction decks (costs need to be covered). Plastic would be nice, but realistically to keep costs down (especially for players with many factions), sleeves or lamination would still be needed.
  
• Books for future models and expansions containing fluff, artwork, scenarios/missions and statcards. Those that enjoy the former and wish to further support Wyrd in this form can do so
  
• Statcards to be part of a mobile application like PP's War Room. Errata and updates to be automatically downloaded via this app. Service value here from other functions would offset the availability of below
  
• Free pdf downloads (a timed release after the books and app perhaps) for those that wish to print their own and more importantly , peruse the range to gauge future model purchases without the barrier of multiple $30+ books
  

To touch on that last one. In my group many players sat on their box set with a blister or two gained from starting out master entries on the PMF wiki. It wasn't until I brought my books regularly to game days (own all 4) that they read all their faction statcards and subsequently purchased new minis.

Secondly, the existing free pdfs are used to learn about other crews and kept them anchored in the system longer.

I think there's a strong case to be made that it would lower the cost barrier of entry generating new players and increase the purchase rate of existing players. Of course this is all opinion based on opportunity gain. The tweets do sound promising though.

Edited May 3, 2013 by GrAYFoX
Spelling

[Fetid Strumpet]

The rules for every model in the infinity range are free and available? I had heard their rules pack was, but I had not hear their individual model stats were.

[decker_cky]

I can see it being something of a concern for marcus or Levi (or similar players)

Maybe a "levi deck" or a "marcus deck" could be introduced.... thast a lot of extra items to stock and pack extra so a lot more costs.....

but im not saying they should be free..... but master that draw across faction rather than one, might see a high cost....

Geeze...hadn't even considered that and I'm a Marcus player. Either crossfaction masters need you to buy everything, or there will be a lot of duplicates from cross faction masters.

[Athan Allgood]

To touch on that last one. In my group many players sat on their box set with a blister or two gained from starting out master entries on the PMF wiki. It wasn't until I brought my books regularly to game days (own all 4) that they read all their faction statcards and subsequently purchased new minis.

This is similar to my position, except I'm the guy without the books.

A close friend got into the game, and introduced me. Because I am on a very tight budget, I picked up the Raspy box. Because I am a nerd, I then began researching every aspect of the game I could.

That said, the 'poor' part never went away. I never even considered picking up another model until I read up on the Silent Ones in my friends copy of book 2.

Even now, when I am up to 4.5 crews (Raspy, Collette, the Dreamer and Lilith) I have never bought a model from outside book one or two... because those are the only books I've had the opportunity to see. I cannot justify buying a model for which I havn't seen the stats, even though some of the new stuff sounds great (Tuco is apparently a badd-arse... but I'd like to know for sure).

Doesn't mean Wyrd hasn't gotten any cash out of me... but I guarantee they could have more if they released the full model stats for review prior to cash purchase.

But again, I'm a small fish, I know that. I won't ask (and certainly wont demand) Wyrd make me happy if they honestly believe it will hurt them as a company.

[baskinders]

I don't mind if there is an electronic copy of the product for free OR for sale in an ebook format, just as long as there is an electronic copy available. I know some people have a strong traditional view about liking physical printed material and that's fine, I'm happy for them to have the option to purchase those (even though I feel that with electronic technology as good as it is physical printing is basically unnecessary and indulgent pollution ). But this doesn't mean those that prefer electronic media shouldn't be given the choice of that. The fact is that if its not offered by Wyrd its going to happen anyway through the file sharing community, someone will scan the product an make it available outside of Wyrd control. Much better from a business point of view to retain control yourself...

[Voodoo Specter]

Razhem I think those players who buy with their eyes will do so anyway based on the quality of the models and new plqyers like myself who don't have a Henchman for miles around decided to start playing after having a propper look at the rules and deciding it looked like a fun game to play.

Thats not to say I wouldn't have come to malifaux without the rules being downloadable for free but I would have had to have waited for a friend to stumble across it invest in it themselves and then show me how good it was. With the rules on the website I saw a picture of a giant killer teddy bear looked at the site saw I could download the rules decided they were somthing I would like to spend my time playing them showed them to my friends and made a large purchase of models.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Voodoo Specter

[xKoBiEx]

Would I say no to free cards...probably not. Do I think it is a good idea, no. I don't even like the idea of sending my cards in and getting the replacements free. Things go wrong with the mail and I like having my models ready for a game whenever one could pop up. I'll be buying the 7 decks.

[poulpox]

I wouldn't mind a pdf option, so that I can see the stats of models I don't have, but I will buy the decks for what I have.

[Gorbad]

The rules for every model in the infinity range are free and available? I had heard their rules pack was, but I had not hear their individual model stats were.

Yeah, the only thing not available is the art and fluff, and I believe the new campaign system. Of course, Infinity also have several army builders available with full stats and a great wiki that crosslinks everything (and is almost needed to play, especially if your new) so the way I play that these days is to bring my tablet because I can have all the info on there just click through. Now CB have obviously decided that that approach makes good business sense for them. Wyrd might decided that the same apply to them and if they do, more power to them. But it's a business decision. I think what annoyed people (or certainly me) was the "I'm entitled to get your work for free otherwise you are horribly greedy and exploiting the fans" vibe that was given off. We aren't entitled to anything for free.

Now it might be that Wyrd also offers some sort of digital solution, in fact I hope they do. I would love it if just as with Infinity I could run everything off my tablet. Of course, said digital solution might not be free either. And it could also be that having the rules, or some rules freely available only would increase sales for Wyrd. I'm inclined to think they would, but I honestly don't know because not working in the industry I've never seriously looked into it so I don't know. And Wyrd is first and foremost a business. It have to make business sense for them to do things, much as we might prefer them to be able to do stuff just for our enjoyment.

[Claymore65]

I don't have much say, as I'll probably be buying a faction deck for my main faction (Outcasts!) even if they release free pdfs. My buddy plays almost exclusively guild, so he's fine as well (though if plastic Ramos or Mcmourning or Kirai comes out...). This is not fact in any way, but I assume that the open play test on May 31st will release the playtest materials via online pdfs. To all of the fans of the game, they will have the (hopefully) free pdfs available to playtest. I sincerely doubt the playtest will release the actual faction decks as one of the goals is to get some player/community input. These playtest pdfs will not be erased from your computer after the playtest will be complete. In fact, the latest of the playtest packet will most likely be valid. This means that you will have free pdfs as long as you are willing to participate in the playtest. I think that might be a fair trade. Wyrd gets a ton of external playtesting, and the playtesters get free pdfs of the cards.

As for after the playtest, I'd be fine with them releasing some of the cards. To be most fair, I would say release the cards for only the Book 1 masters or some other qualification (like 1 master per faction and X minions) and release those online for free. Add in a free rules manual as well (like they already have). This would be the same as releasing the v2 cards online and the rules manual. People curious about the game can proxy a match or two using a smaller selection of models, and those who want free pdfs can get them for many of the units. It might be a good compromise, but who wants to compromise...

[Adran]

Maybe I am technophobic and old fashioned, but I don't want to see my opponent just have a tablet device opposite me. Especially if the new upgrade rules go on, I'm not easily going to be able to keep track of what models are damaged and what has what upgrades if I can't physically see the cards.

On the flip side I do enjoy having access to the V2 Pdfs of book one when I answer rules questions.

But I don't want a non-card format to become the way of the game.

And if people would be expecting an electronic format to allow them to replace owning the cards then I am strongly against it. If people are expecting to own both, use the physical cards for the game and the electronic copy for browsing, wound tracking and so forth I am less against the idea, as long as they still have the model cards in front of them for the game.

From what I've heard all the model rules will be in the books. From trial and error I've found that I don't like playing with/against people using the book for their stat cards, or printouts of the cards.

[baskinders]

Maybe I am technophobic and old fashioned, but I don't want to see my opponent just have a tablet device opposite me. Especially if the new upgrade rules go on, I'm not easily going to be able to keep track of what models are damaged and what has what upgrades if I can't physically see the cards.

On the flip side I do enjoy having access to the V2 Pdfs of book one when I answer rules questions.

But I don't want a non-card format to become the way of the game.

And if people would be expecting an electronic format to allow them to replace owning the cards then I am strongly against it. If people are expecting to own both, use the physical cards for the game and the electronic copy for browsing, wound tracking and so forth I am less against the idea, as long as they still have the model cards in front of them for the game.

From what I've heard all the model rules will be in the books. From trial and error I've found that I don't like playing with/against people using the book for their stat cards, or printouts of the cards.

I think that's a bit unimaginative and a little bit selfish myself.

I would prefer to play against opponents who have completely painted crews, but that's my problem not theirs.

I'd also prefer to play against an opponent who had a tablet connected to my tablet via Bluetooth with an app that kept track of current model status that instantly updated for both of us to keep track of the game. But as that's a bit hard to find I'll take an opponent with whatever they bring to the table. And if I find it hard to keep track then I'll take it upon myself to tap into my notes app on my tablet each time something happens to keep my own notes. Or just ask my opponent...

[Adran]

Fair enough. It is a bit selfish but I am answering the original thread question of why I don't think the free cards are worth fighting for. It might happen. if it does I will live with it, but I'm not going to fight for it.

Is it selfish to want free stuff from the company? I would go yes. Doesn't stop me liking free stuff.

I don't own a tablet but I do own a smart phone, and have tried playing games with cards downloaded on the phone. I found it took a lot longer (just like when trying to use stat cards from a book) to refer to the stat cards for rules, and more time was spent by people looking for what their stats were than in games with actual cards. It was trickier to keep track of wounds and effects and to look up information.

I have played games like that, but it does take me and my group a lot more time and effort. Its possible truely tech savvy people and the right sort of Apps wouldn't have this problem. I'm not going to walk away from an opponent because they are using pdf rules now, but I find it a less satifying game that has taken more time, both because the way of accessing rules has slowed the flow of the game.

I know its an outdated thing, but it still seems rude when I see people reading things on their phone when they are supposed to be interacting with me. The fact that the thing they are reading is part of the interaction just means I know that I haven't changed my mindset to "the modern way" yet. Its irrational, stupid and inconsistant of me and I acknowledge that, but I haven't yet managed to change my personal outlook

For what its worth I also don't like reading on electronic devices like Kindles, I much prefer a physical book. I understand other much prefer them, and I can see many of their advantages, but I just don't like them. Would I buy an electronic version of the rules/cards to have on my phone for access? Yes, I possibly would. But I would not want it to replace cards and rule book.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Adran

[Mike3838]

Even after playing the game for years and with a reasonable grasp of what the majority of models in the game can do, I still find myself occasionally asking my opponent "Could I have a quick check of X's stat card please?", and it is usually handed over.

An opponent choosing to not use cards means I either have to be able to use their tablet/app/phone (unlikely since I won't be familiar with the interface), or drag around all 4 books to all of my games so that I can look it up myself and not be so "selfish".

In my experience, *not* having stat cards on the table slows down play more than any speeding up the tech brings.

[Lagapul]

Same Thoughts here,

One of the best Things of Malifaux is the Card System.

Everytime a player is not sure what to do next they check their cards quickly for options. I do the same thing, often. Because you don't have all of the rules and Abilities in mind.

Nevertheless you can print out a PDF and use it. Like usually done for the Dreamer or Hamelin.

I'd be sad, if I had to buy new Cards for all my old Minis.

So I'd love to have a PDF to print out all the used Cards, which have been changed.

[Mike3838]

Agreed - I'm totally in favour of a PDF being made available - I'd just prefer it to be a reference tool outside of games rather than during games.

[rikowal]

Here is my quick and basic take on it. Paying a small fee for a deck of updated cards is fine by me, especially because it beats the alternative (buying a "codex" for $25-50/faction).

Although, I suppose with a codex, there would be more fluff....hmmm..now I am torn...

[Huang Da Wei]

Just a thought on the buy cards vs pdf.

Those of you wanting pdf files is it for printing yourself or for loading to tablet/pad to play that way?

If its to print yourself then please let me know what printer you use cos mine is damn expensive to run, sadly I dont have good one at work to play with when no one is looking.

If its for electronic reference when you play can I ask do you find it causes a problem remembering who has activated?

My OCD is to put my cards to the left and when the model has activated I move it to the right, but I have noticed some people I play use their tablet and often cant remember what has or hasnt activated each turn.

[caen]

It is time to make some estimation.

There will be two faction decks for two waves of introducing models into IIed. Each will cost 8$ (some peoples give that numbers previously in discussion).

So all cards for my one faction will cost 16$. I need 6 faction decks - so I will have to spend almost 100$.

The Faction Decks will be “as cheap as possible” - such statement was in various podcasts. So the WYRD profit from my spending will be “as near as zero as possible”.

I believe that many persons (like me myself) have a fixed budget that they can spend on hobby. So I will spend 100$ on Faction Desks instead of buying models. I suppose that if I will spend 100$ on WYRD models the WYRD’s profit will be bigger than from the same amount of my many spent on “as cheap as possible” faction decks.

So free PDF are in fact a good thing for WYRD economy - in my case at least.

I also presume that “my case” is common in WYRD players community.

[Pierowmaniac]

I am all for people who want pdf cards. I myself though do not. All I currently ask is will faction decks be sold in places like Wayland etc so that uk fans can buy them without being screwed over on postage costs. If we in the uk can buy models and books we should also be able to buy cards too which currently is not an option due to how wyrd charge postage for them.

Would it be so hard for a higher up from wyrd to confirm that faction decks will be available everywhere....

I still have v1 cards from when I originally played. I refuse to update them due to postage. I think it would certainly ease minds knowing that faction decks will be available to buy from again Wayland, firestorm etc.

I can't really see why on earth they wouldn't sell them through the normal international distributors?

I pretty much expect to pick my faction decks up from anywhere in the UK

[Math Mathonwy]

I honestly don't see a very strong argument being presented for Wyrd giving away the stats on their models for free. Does any other successful company make all their rules available for free? That's an actual question.

I actively play six skirmish games currently. Eden gives rules and stats out for free. Hell Dorado gives out stats for free. Infinity gives out rules and stats for free. Carnevale gives out rules and stats for free. Alkemy gives out rules and stats for free. Malifaux is the odd one out, that doesn't give out stats for free.

Now, naturally you can argue whether those others are succesful. Certainly not as succesful as Malifaux (and in Alkemy's case, quite marginal indeed). But I doubt that it was the free stats that are standing in the way of their success.

But that is a bit beside the point, really. I'm 100% sure that Wyrd didn't make any money with their v2 card exchange program. I doubt that they are going to be making money out of the factions decks, either. I mean, maybe they don't make a loss, but the marginal is likely to be miniscule.

The stuff that Wyrd makes money from, is the minis. Now, maybe people would go crazy proxying with PP minis or something if the stat cards were freely available, but I seriously doubt it. Wyrd has rather a unique aesthetic and I honestly believe that most players are drawn in by that. Or at least I hope so (though with the advent of plastic, at least the forum talk around new releases died down significantly).

[Vinncent]

I fully support the caen's demands.

I gave up with four other battle/skirmish systems to invest in Malifaux, invest in new things like figures, models and of course PW. But I am opposed to paying several times for the same thing. Wyrd's strategy with additions and corrections in free pdf is very good and let it be.

I completely devoted myself to Malifaux, exactly what You created this world. Changes are needed, but not all have so much to interfere in, what is already very good.

[baskinders]

Just a thought on the buy cards vs pdf.

Those of you wanting pdf files is it for printing yourself or for loading to tablet/pad to play that way?

If its to print yourself then please let me know what printer you use cos mine is damn expensive to run, sadly I dont have good one at work to play with when no one is looking.

If its for electronic reference when you play can I ask do you find it causes a problem remembering who has activated?

My OCD is to put my cards to the left and when the model has activated I move it to the right, but I have noticed some people I play use their tablet and often cant remember what has or hasnt activated each turn.

I play using both my tablet and the model cards mostly, as I have both so happy to use them both. Either way the way my group tracks activation is to put a small token next to each mini on the table once activated so you can see who's still to go without referring to either cards or tablets . Works well for us.