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So I am perfectly clear about Carve a Swathe and Riposte...


Kalkris

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Can Izamu utilize Carve a Swathe off of a severe damage flip from hitting the Riposte trigger? I am looking solely for a Rules Marshal's word on this.

My argument is that it works, because, reading Lady Justice's v2 card, it says "as if she had made a Greatsword strike" at the end, where while Izamu does not, it is implied, in the same way Immune to Influence and Irresistible used to have wording. Furthermore, while Izamu did not use the (1) Strike action, Riposte when triggered creates retroactive action, in that the action is treated as if Izamu *did* make the strike.

the argument against mine ranges from the fact that Izamu did not make the strike action, to the fact that Riposte on Izamu says nothing about izamu making a strike.

I would very much like a Rules Marshal's word on this above anyone else's because I keep on getting mixed words from people ranging from experienced veterans of the game to people who also seem unsure but have some ideas of their own on the (slightly ambiguous) wording. This does need to be finalized in settlement.

Thank you.

~Lil Kalki

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"Riposte only lets you deal damage using the result of the Combat Duel against her as if she had with with her sword (which only matters for the Neg/Pos flips on damage). It only lets you deal damage, but doesn't count as if you had really made a strike with the weapon."

And what do you get the healing flip for with Izamu? Strike

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"as if she had hit with her greatsword"

Retroactive application makes the game state treat it as if it actually were a Strike made with the Dadao.

Would you have Izamu take 1 from Black Blood off of Riposte, too (assuming he were in range)?

~Lil Kalki

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And, as an aside, the person saying the quote was Karn, who was a Rules Marshall then. As was Wierd Sketch who replied later in the thread that Karn was right and then, of course, there was Mr. Awesome... Keltheos in the same thread.

---------- Post added at 06:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:55 PM ----------

"as if she had hit with her greatsword"

Retroactive application makes the game state treat it as if it actually were a Strike made with the Dadao.

Would you have Izamu take 1 from Black Blood off of Riposte, too (assuming he were in range)?

~Lil Kalki

Black Blood says when you are hit with a "Melee Strike", so no, I would not give Izamu damage since the Riposte is not a strike.

Enjoy yourself! :) (Go Rezzers!)

Edited by Gruesome
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Onslaught is fundamentally different in many, many ways from Carve a Swathe, in application alone (effects aside). I am still awaiting a Rules Marshal here, re: *this* situation as it is different than that of the Onslaught argument.

~Lil Kalki

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But we can agree that the ruling is that Riposte is not a Strike, yes?

And if so, with the healing flip clearly calling for a Strike from the Dadao, we can agree that it fails to meet that condition?

I guess I am wondering which bit you feel needs further elaboration from a rules Marshall.

To restate that Riposte is not a Strike? Or to restate that the wording for the healing flip requires a Strike?

Forget about Onslaught... The relevant part of the link I provided is the description, by a rules marshall, of what Riposte is, or in this particular case, is NOT. (see: strike)

Edited by Gruesome
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Offhand, we can agree with the fact that Riposte does not generate a strike. However, the discrepancy comes from whether or not Riposte alters the game state to imply that Izamu/LJ/etc has made one, although no, the user has not actually made one.

Whether Riposte is or is not counted as a Strike for the purpose of CaS remains to be seen.

~Lil Kalki

EDIT: I mean to ask the nature of Riposte as a trigger. I am fully aware that Riposte is not a Strike. It is a trigger which, to my knowledge, alters the game state so that the strike made by the attacker (missing) is now treated as a strike made by the riposte-user. Riposte itself is not the strike, but the missed strike made by the original attacker is (only the defender has the damage flip from said strike, using the duel total for that sake).

EDIT2: AND, Carve a Swathe doesn't even necessarily need a Dadao strike. It doesn't say that. Otherwise, it would be more likely that the effect would be on the weapon itself. That should mean that if someone like Lilith missed with her Greatsword with a Riposte on the line, the fact that it wasn't originally a Dadao strike, but rather a greatsword strike, doesnt even matter.

Edited by Kalkris
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Answered in the other thread but again (and a Rules Marshal really doesn't need to weigh in on this one),

Riposte does not generate a Melee Strike, Carve a Swathe requires one to be made to grant the Healing Flip from a Severe Damge flip. It is a very simple thing.

You do not get a Healing flip from Riposte if it causes Severe Damage because it didn't generate a Melee Strike.

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It is clear that Riposte does not generate, or result in, a melee strike. The strike was already underway well before Riposte was triggered. It just so happens that the one dealing the damage from the melee strike is the defender, not the attacker.

~Lil Kalki

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CaS reads: "This model performs a Healing Flip after inflicting Severe damage with a melee Strike on an enemy model." Nowhere does it say who has to actually generate the strike, nor does it say what weapon has to deal the damage.

~Lil Kalki

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Riposte does not generate a strike, as I have agreed with you ad nauseum. the attacker making a strike, and missing, generates the strike. Riposte just makes it so that Izamu *can* possibly deal severe damage to an enemy model, thus allowing for CaS to work in such a case.

~Lil Kalki

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Riposte is a Trigger not an action.

Melee Strikes are defined actions.

The failed melee Strike which triggers Riposte belongs to the attacker. Izamu doesn't usurp control over the melee Strike by triggering Riposte, the action still belongs to the attacking model.

Carve a Swath is Izamu's ability and requires "inflicting Severe damage with a melee Strike on an enemy model." If flipping Severe damage on a Riposte he still did not generate the melee Strike or a melee Strike. Riposte essentially genrates a Damage flip based on the level of failure of the original attacker and nothing else.

I am however bowing out of this one since you wont accept anything other than a Rules Marshal and any further discussion is unlikely to change your mind.

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I am not sure I get the point here. Correct me if the point stays the same, but because Onslaught is a trigger and CaS is just an ability, isn't it different?

~Lil Kalki

well if riposte became a strike then as per the rules you get to declare triggers which if it was a mask you could do onslaught.

since riposte is not a strike dont have to worry about that. but i am with omenbringer, i have spoke my piece already, cited rules, and faq. toodles

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well if riposte became a strike then as per the rules you get to declare triggers which if it was a mask you could do onslaught.

since riposte is not a strike dont have to worry about that. but i am with omenbringer, i have spoke my piece already, cited rules, and faq. toodles

I have already repeated that this is not the case and I am well aware. You are merely looking at this from an entirely different angle. Riposte generates no strike. The enemy model makes the melee strike. By the time the opponent's melee strike unto Izamu has failed and Riposte is triggered, there is no more time for a trigger. However the strike is still underway and it is Izamu who makes the damage flip unto an enemy model. If this flip is severe, then Carve a Swathe goes off and Izamu makes a healing flip.

~Lil Kalki

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CaS reads: "This model performs a Healing Flip after inflicting Severe damage with a melee Strike on an enemy model." Nowhere does it say who has to actually generate the strike, nor does it say what weapon has to deal the damage.

~Lil Kalki

He has to generate the strike. says it right there at This model performs a healing flip After inflicting severe damage with a melee Strike.

I have already repeated that this is not the case and I am well aware. You are merely looking at this from an entirely different angle. Riposte generates no strike. The enemy model makes the melee strike. By the time the opponent's melee strike unto Izamu has failed and Riposte is triggered, there is no more time for a trigger. However the strike is still underway and it is Izamu who makes the damage flip unto an enemy model. If this flip is severe, then Carve a Swathe goes off and Izamu makes a healing flip.

~Lil Kalki

My only question is how would CaS go off if izamu did not make a melee strike.(with any weapon)

Yes if you bash and deal severe you would heal off of CaS.

The only thing Riposte does is make a Damage flip using the Reverse totals. if you try to use the Lj reasoning i will point you to same name triggers with different wording (ie the other thread)

Now i am done. i cant argue any more i cant put more info out since it is all there between 2-3 threads.

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You do not seem to see that CaS says nothing about who makes the melee strike. Through Riposte, Izamu is making the damage flip off of another model's melee strike. If it is Severe, CaS goes off and Izamu makes a healing flip. I am still waiting for a Rules Marshal here because it is clear that *somebody* (not necessarily you) is misinformed and I need to hear the final say to understand exactly what is going on.

~Lil Kalki

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I get your argument however, the language of Carve a Swathe doesn't support it.

Carve a Swathe: This model performs a Healing Flip after inflicting Severe Damage with a melee Strike on an enemy model.

or to clarify:

Izamu performs a Healing Flip after inflicting Severe Damage with a melee Strike on an enemy model.

Notice how the simple replacement of This with Izamu makes it absolutely clear that the ability only functions off of a melee Strike that is generated by him (and not any melee Strike that he is a part of in the case of the Riposte trigger).

I know you wont accept anything other than an "official" response from a Rules Marshal however this is pretty clear cut and has been suitably answered (historically in such situations they dont weigh in, especially when deep into the development/ refinement of new products like they are currently).

Edited by Omenbringer
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Sorry to "interrupt" this discussion, but if I may make one suggestion?

If we look at Kalkris argument that Izamu is using the enemy models melee Strike, then is there not a problem in the wording of CaS?

"...a melee Strike on an enemy model."

If Izamu uses the enemy model´s Strike to hit him, then he is not hitting the enemy of the strike, but a friendly model of the strike (ei himself)?

A bit confusing when reading it, so I will try rewriting it as an Example:

Santiago attacks Izumu with a melee Strike, Izumu uses ripost and then CaS. But the melee Strike is still Santiagos (Kalkris argument) so it is damaging a friendly model, Santiago.

So if I understand the argument correctly, Izumu uses Santiagos Strike to damage Santiago, but because the damage was not at an enemy model of the ​Strike CaS would not "kick in"?

Edited by Thaarup
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Because Izamu and Santiago (in your case) are enemy models to each other and Izamu is dealing the damage to Santiago, Izamu is dealing [severe] damage with a melee strike on an enemy model (Santiago). CaS should then kick in.

~Lil Kalki

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well if riposte became a strike then as per the rules you get to declare triggers which if it was a mask you could do onslaught.

since riposte is not a strike dont have to worry about that. but i am with omenbringer, i have spoke my piece already, cited rules, and faq. toodles

Thats a horrible strawman arguement as everything you have said is wrong. You couldn't trigger Onslaught for 2 completly different reasons. You are only allowed 1 trigger per duel (and you have already declared Repost as your trigger), and you are not using your Cb.

I think Lil Kalki has it wrong. "This model has not caused severe damage with a melee strike" as this model has not made a melee strike.

The reposte does not create a melee strike (which I think has been agreed by all). The damage flip caused by repost is not a damage flip from the melee strike. Izamu has just dealt the damage. It does not come from the strike the enemy model has made.

In fact it is still possible for the enemy model to deal damage with the strike (in the very niche case If you reposte a guardians shield, then the Shield is still the only thing that is dealing damage from the melee strike). The Damage caused by triggers and other abilities is a seperate damage source to the strike damage (see Sammual Hopkins Flaming bullets and Riccochet for one example, or Ryles gattling gun).

Its still not a Rules Marshal, but an explaination as to where the damage flip comes from, as its not from a melee strike. (I haven't go tthe exact ruels page to quote unfortunatly)

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