Where oh Where is Lilith Gone

[Hunter-thom]

Today after a some thoughts about moving back to playing Lilith for a while, I thought I would have a quick scan down the list off threads and see what everyone has been doing with her. But after a quick scan down list there is..... Well.... Nothing. Almost no Lilith threads in sight, so my question is what has happened to her, is she out of favour with the General public, Cheesy now? or Boring. I think she is great to play with and a massive challenge to play against. I have mainly used her with a Nekima grow crew, and a couple of times with the twins and some tots. But I have just finished Collodi and wanted to hear some thoughts on how they paired up... But like I said there is no resent talk about her hear abouts. So thought and resent exploits off Lilith would be great. How many epic kills has she done for you?????

[M_Ruckuss]

Shes a great model and my first Neverborn master but I find I very rarely play with her, despite intending to. I primarily run Zoraida, whom I have a ridiculous number of list variants for. I then have Lynch who rarely gets used, Dreamer I am trying to find some time to learn with and Pandora to pull out once in a while because I genuinely like her, but also understand why others dont. I then have all of my outcast and Ten Thunder crews to play. I think the bottom line is that cool as Lilith is, Misaki, Mei Feng and even the Viks have more quirks and character in terms of play style and so are more fun. Its a shame really- I will have to give her a go in the coming weeks.

From a semi-competative point of view she doesnt offer me that much. Sure shes a beatstick with DF 8 and an 18" move but I dont need that to win games. Give me obey, raven and proper manners with a side of Voodoo doll any day...! Some people may not agree but if her great sword were magical she would actually have more of a niche. And before Kirai/Yan Lo players cry "OP" LILITH is doing 2 dmg on a severe flip to Spizamu... She would still have a Low cast aND Will power with no offensive spells.

In summary I think we see less of her because although she is a great 'learning' master (several new players we have had have taken her) the advent of other similar TT beatstick masters may have some players over looking her, and more players have gone back to the Viks since the strong arm and Vanessa have appeared. For more advanced players she is a bit like having a mallet in the toolbox. A hammer, by comparison, has two functions. If she had more to her game than smash face (even Lady J has a niche...) it might help us see more of her...my 2 cents anyhow

[Adran]

Lileth is Fine as a master, easy to learn the basics with. She is quite stand alone as she has very little synergy with any figure, so largely regardless of your crew she will be doign the same thing. And what she does is good, but once you've mastered Melee, Terrain placement and Transposition it doesn't matter what else you pick, she will be doing the same sort of thing.

Even the nephlim grow lists are probably going to do better with another master than Lileth as she provides minimal help to them.

[Pox]

Of all the neverborn masters I own I like Lilith the best.

On the face of it is she is simply a quick beatstick...and sometimes that is what you want. Someone who is quick enough to get where they want, and kill stuff - nothing wrong with that. Could argue she doesn't do it well enough since she can't ignore armour/not magical but that is a niche group of models and sorted out by good minion selection.

Things i often do with her beyond the obvious kill stuff, is making an illusionary forest is great for blocking LOS permanently as does not end during the close phase so is absolutely great at putting a blinker on shooty guild crews even if you lose the initiative (unlike stitched, creepy fog.) Earthquake is just awesome in objective games like treasure hunt, line in the sand, destroy the evidence etc simply to move the enemy just enough that it wont be in melee range allowing you to 1 action something OR to make them drop a counter whilst also moving your team up towards them.

Transposition is fun but better cast off a totem usually.

Now back to spirits and armour....enter Collodi who excels at 1 damaging things to death in a flurry of attacks and is also very fast...

so two very fast people who excel in different areas but both want to be in your face smashing you to bits - excellent! just takes a little while to work out how best to optimise them working together, but have had great success running the two together.

[Hunter-thom]

So the answer to the question of where has Lillith gone is... Se has been left with the beginners to learn with. I think that is fair enough. At the end of the day I think I still love her more than anything. (expect maybe new Hamelin) And will always have fun with her, there is nothing like running though a wall and then pumping out some huge dmg.

I have never run her with Collodi and with a Tournament coming up i'm thinking of giving it a go.... What would be the best 30p list for killy and movement type games with these 2? And how would you deal with someone like Pandora?

The last time I played with her I had a same grow crew and early game while they where doing there thing I started to range out ahead with her. Perdita came up the flank and was going to have one shot on her. I thought okay, I can take that. she would be within charge range next turn and would be in trouble. He flipped and SS to about mid 20s. Okay DF flip a ss to bring it to a neg damage flip. Smile on my face as he flips a 2 and then the red joker.... Smile now gone, next flip is a 13. Poor lillith coped 12 dmg (I think) from the frist shot in the first round... Dm prevent was a 1.... It turned out to be one of those days:) But that's why I love Malifaux

[Joel]

Lilith might be one of the better masters at dealing with pandora due to both brood mother and her ability to see through terrain.

Lilith can move to a position where she can see pandora but not be seen herself, and have another nephilim, and a linked sorrow with her. Better if they are placed so that the sorrow is up against the terrain and Lilith and the other neph would block all it's movement.

Lilith then transposes the sorrow and pandora. She then hits pandora and has her neph do the same. Pandora will be unable to push away due to placement. Mr graves is a good choice for second neph for his ability to flurry here.

Hopefully, this is enough to kill her. If done after a pandora activation, you can then pile on! The sorrow will snap back too. If after, she still isn't going anywhere.

This will require a little luck and high cards though!

If you don't have these, stay hidden with the entire crew and do this to pandora's crew, one model at a time, until you can get pandora. Doppleganger makes a good first target!

while Lilith is doing this, collodi and his dolls stay hidden, but prep for a fast move to grab objectives or kill when possible - they also get used separately where possible to burn up the other crew's activations.

At 35 stones a possible crew might be:

lilith, 7ss

primordial magic

collodi

4 marionettes

Mr. Graves (sir) - could switch for tuco, but his base size might be a factor

sorrow

brutal effigy (a stubborn doll so potential wp10 in opposed duels if close to collodi, can heal Lilith from the sorrow too, also a me less expert with built in critical strike - not a bad backup pandora killer)

At 30 stones, I would probably remove the brutal effigy, and change graves for a young nephilim to maintain at a 7ss cache.

Edited April 14, 2013 by Joel

[Hunter-thom]

Great tactical ideas... One question though. Why the sorrow? I was thinking for 35 p

Collodi.

4 dolls

Twins

Prime magic

Tot

6 stones.

[Marcalla]

You use the sorrow so that it doesn't leave you exposed after the transposition. The sorrow links to someone in the "alpha strike" chain and at the end of that models activation it push's back to the linked model leaving the opposition with no targets to exact their vengeance upon.

[GrengisKhan]

I'm still a big fan of Lilith. I learned the game with her and still play her quite a bit.

Of all her tricksy abilities I find Illusionary Forest the most useful though I tend to cast it with a primordial magic more often than not.

I do want to give her avatar a try. I think aLilith could be useful in Claim Jump/Master of the Hill type scenarios. By placing the new forests you get when manifesting around the marker or on the hill she'll beable to extend her melee range massively.

As an aside I don't believe she can walk through walls. Master of Malifaux only lets her ignore severe, hazardous and water terrain, not ignore terrain completely for movement purposes. She can stab people through walls though, as Master of Malifaux let's her ignore terrain for line of sight purposes.

Greg

[Joel]

Marcella has it right - the sorrow, who is linked to Lilith, snaps back into base contact with her at the end of her activation.

This allows you to do this again and again. I call it "sorrow fishing"

[Lewkas]

As an aside I don't believe she can walk through walls. Master of Malifaux only lets her ignore severe, hazardous and water terrain, not ignore terrain completely for movement purposes. She can stab people through walls though, as Master of Malifaux let's her ignore terrain for line of sight purposes.

Greg

This is correct. I enjoy using Lilith and depending on which minions you combine her with she can be a lot of fun to play. I particularly like playing a 25SS game with Lelu, Lelitu and Tuco/Mr Graves with a 6SS pool. I generally only put Tots in when I am playing a higher SS gam.

[micahwc]

I am interested to see how she is changed in 2.0. She was my first master and is my favorite. Also interested to see how Nekima is changed in 2.0.

[Hunter-thom]

I really can't wait to see what will happen with Nekima in 2.0

I've always said she would be close to an auto include for me if she had use soulstones. I really do love her a lot. I think they will have to spend some time on Lilith, She holds her own little corner in malifaux with the Nephs but due to bein g a little straightforward I guess, she just gets left behind when people start looking for a bit of complexity in there game. God I do love her huge charge and big hits though. Can never get enough of that.

[i_was_like_you]

I really can't wait to see what will happen with Nekima in 2.0

I've always said she would be close to an auto include for me if she had use soulstones. I really do love her a lot. I think they will have to spend some time on Lilith, She holds her own little corner in malifaux with the Nephs but due to bein g a little straightforward I guess, she just gets left behind when people start looking for a bit of complexity in there game. God I do love her huge charge and big hits though. Can never get enough of that.

Try running Nekima in a Campaign to give her use soulstone. See how good she can be with it.

[micahwc]

I'm hoping she will be seen a lot more in about 15 days.

[ooshawn]

the problem with Lilith is, that if you play Neverborn literally all your options are just god damn so awesome. That's pretty much what it boils down to. Every master in the faction has just as good of damage output and mobility. They all do pretty much the same thing. Lilith is just as effective, but doesn't have as much of what attracts most people to Neverborn. Cool stuff, basically. She is just a little too straight forward I guess compared to what else the neverborn have to offer.

[micahwc]

the problem with Lilith is, that if you play Neverborn literally all your options are just god damn so awesome. That's pretty much what it boils down to. Every master in the faction has just as good of damage output and mobility. They all do pretty much the same thing. Lilith is just as effective, but doesn't have as much of what attracts most people to Neverborn. Cool stuff, basically. She is just a little too straight forward I guess compared to what else the neverborn have to offer.

We have some bad models. Cherub, Bad Juju (as much as I love the sculpt and his unique deployment method), a non-growth list Nekima... Okay, now I'm struggling to think of things. Gupps? Maybe you're right.

I guess I wish she had more reasons to actually take Nephilim, as she really only has 2 synergistic abiliities with them. Brood mother and blood from stone. Blood from stone is pretty situational, and brood mother only works on 1 nephilim per turn, so basically she has just as much synergy with Waldgeists as she does her own nephilim people. In the fluff, until she avatars there is no relation bewteen her and the Waldgeists.

[Pox]

We have some bad models. Cherub, Bad Juju (as much as I love the sculpt and his unique deployment method), a non-growth list Nekima... Okay, now I'm struggling to think of things. Gupps? Maybe you're right.

cherub is actually my totem of choice with Lilith. I find the increased defence particularly useful and the slightly better speed can come in nice (especially if used as a killjoy summoning tool.) Also it's own spells are not too bad! the Primordial magic can stay in the case.

I just hope Lilith doesn't change too much, she has the night perfect combination of aggression and high defence with a few fun tricks such as creating forests to block LOS, transposition to quickly move stuff around and earthquake to force people to drop counters (like treasure etc.) and the -2df ability aura is simply fantastic!

Edited May 17, 2013 by Pox

[Marcalla]

I agree, the cherub is fast becoming my totem of choice with Lilith. That of course is contingent on having the Arcane Effigy for Arcane Reservoir. The casting is the same for both so the tranposition/EQ casting will be the same ranging over the two models. While the cherub has a better CB, Def (including a trigger) movement, flight, and a useful (if a bit difficult) spell that causes targets to not be able to attack or attack with - to its CB.

Really the only reason to use the Primordial Magic over the Cherub is AR which is mitigated via the Arcane Effigy.