What exactly makes the 'Zamu so powerful?

[Fetid Strumpet]

The problem with us is that there is a mechanical difference along the lines if Attack vs attack, and like how when the alp bomb was big how belles could get around it a little by using lure to generate the strike so that they wouldn't take dmg.

It is one of the many wording peculiarities of malifaux.

[The Godlyness]

Okay but Carve a Swath says nothing about strike actions, merely strikes.

I would think the key is how riposte says you inflict damage as if you had hit the attacker. Well if you flip severe damage when hitting someone as Izamu you get a healing flip. I guess it depends on just how well "as if you had hit the attacker" fills in for "a melee strike on the attacker."

Carve a Swathe Says ....After inflicting Severe with a Melee Strike

Wording of Strike is This model (attacker) Targets another model or piece of breakable terrain (defender) within range and performs and opposed duel using the Combat (cb) value of one of its Weapons against the defenders Defense (Df) valuem shown as Cb --> DF. A model must have a melee weapon to make a melee Strike or a ranged weapon to make a ranged Strike.

At no time is Izamu making a strike. nothing he does with riposte is a strike.

Never pays the (1)

Never Targets another model

Never Does a Cb-->Df opposed duel

Now if Izamu was Engaged with lilitu at 4" normally he would have to take and action and move forward to hit her.right.

now it lilitu attacks izumu at 4" and triggers riposte. He can and does still damage her with his dadao even though he is out of his weapons melee range. in the middle of this he does not check for irresistible cause he is not targeting her with a Strike

Now that is over and we have come to a consensus that he does not heal of of riposte lets move on and enjoy him how he is.

Edited April 13, 2013 by The Godlyness

[Kalkris]

Riposte (LJ v2 version)says "as if it had made a strike". Izamu has shorthand for this clause.

Retroactively, Izamu can Carve a Swathe off of Riposte as Riposte retroactively makes the Cb>Df strike (from the attacker) into a Df>Cb strike (from the defender with Riposte).

Again, if you have a problem, ask a Rules Marshal.

~Lil Kalki

[Gruesome]

You do not get the healing flip off of the Riposte. This was covered before... Do not have the link. People are free to simply not believe those of us that read it and saw it ruled on.

[Kalkris]

Onslaught = trigger, activating off of Cb state

Carve a Swathe = ability, acting off of sever damage flip from strike

Riposte = does not generate a strike but treats the miss as if the riposte user has made one

Riposte does not work with Onslaught because Onslaught needs a Cb total which Riposte does not give. Carve a Swathe only needs a severe damage flip from a melee strike, which we are yet unsure of that status, re: Riposte.

I will continue to wait for a Rules Marshal to give me the word on the status of this.

~Lil Kalki

[Omenbringer]

A Rules Marshal doesn't need to weigh in on this, Riposte does not generate or result in a melee strike despite using the Combat Duel total of one. A Melee Strike is required for Carve a Swath to provide the Healing flip.

[Kalkris]

A Rules Marshal *does* need to weigh in on this because Riposte, while not a strike in its own right, alters the game state so that the Cb>Df strike made by the attacker is now treated as a Df>Cb strike made by the original defender.

And for the record, I'd rather a Rules Marshal weigh in because their word is the final, unequivocally-unchallengeable say, and there seems to be enough confusion for the RMs to speak up on the matter.

~Lil Kalki

[Omenbringer]

Riposte does not generate or result in a Melee Strike plain and simple. Carve a Swathe requires a Melee strike.

Nothing changes in the game state.

Rules Marshals dont usually weigh in when the answer is this plain. Since however you wont accept anything else this may be a long wait (there is a fairly long que ahead of this).

[Kalkris]

As I mentioned the rules thread, Riposte does NOT generate a melee strike. After all, the strike is already underway. It just so happens that the one who has the damage flip is the successful defender and not the attacker.

Lil Kalki

[Omenbringer]

Thank you for starting the other thread by the way. That is where this discussion should have been taking place (and where I'll be diverting to).

[Kalkris]

No problem. I figured this was a tad obtuse and divisive to the main point. I still want a Rules Marshal to weigh in though.

~Lil Kalki

[Mordeqai]

I'm not sure if it's entirely unrelated though; Healing on Riposte is the tipping level for him. If he can heal when you attack him, he can become virtually invincible. You should be able to throw half your crew at him (Think 5 Canine Remains), and not need to worry about him ending up better than he started before the attacks.

[The Godlyness]

using Lj's riposte is for izamu's is incorrect. the wording is different. also why would you use an older version of a trigger when the newer fits in with the faq and makes more sense.

if you think you can just use what ever trigger with the same name well then i bring to you

Perdita with Faster'n you compared to Gunslingers faster'n you.

Both triggers are spelled the same. yet they are worded differently. but according to you, you can just use which ever one you want.

point of this post is you cant pick and choose which wording you want to use. IF anything you should change LJ's Riposte to Riposte(GreatSword) and follow izamu's wording since it is newer.

Also lets look at Steamborg executioner. His wording for Decapitate is different than misaki's

Misaki's is newer and Streamlined. so if anything we should do Decapitate(executioner claws)

Newer wording supersedes older wording.

Edited April 14, 2013 by The Godlyness