What exactly makes the 'Zamu so powerful?

[Nekromanced]

So what makes Izamu powerful is the master you're running him with. But in no means breaks him to the point of any other minion with other masters.

[Justy]

I've played a few times with kirai + izamu + librarian, and some list just can't handle him, if the scenografy let kirai hide, and you don't have the mobility to kill the librarian, you are screwed, since kirai is going to summon ikyrio at 12" and librarian will toss 3healing flips per turn at kirai/izamu.

Granted its expensive, but its quite devastating.

Gamebreaking? Considering that neverborn exist, I don't think izamu should be the main priority on that.

[IntereoVivo]

@Fetid Strumpet: I don't define a crutch that broadly since most models are about the same when it comes to doing what they do. Some models (like Izamu) are just better at doing everything they do.

Maybe your issue with my post is that the word crutch generally has a negative connotation. I am not using it that way which I should have clarified more then I did. Crutches are great in that they make life easier. They can make life a lot more difficult if you are used to having them and are suddenly denied. Good players will be good players and while using "crutches" to make life easier they will not place too much reliance on them since they are good players. Bad players are bad and will often place too much reliance on crutch models.

Mehter put it very nicely:

Good players use those same models, but when they're killed it doesn't ruin the game.

When you take the entire pool of models and average strength for cost Izamu is well above the curve along with a number of other models. But the existence of other OP models doesn't negate Izamu's OP'ness.

I am of the opinion that every time I lose a game it's my own fault. My opponent has little to do with my mistakes. Though I do see how "That's OP" can be used as an excuse, I think it is an exceedingly poor excuse in a game with quite a bit of power gaming potential.

The question posed by the OP was not, "Why is Izamu so over powered, how can we fix him and why can't people stop using him?" It was, "What makes him so good and does he have an exploitable weakness?"

To answer the OP a bit more, what is most exploitable about him is the fact that most people putting Izamu on the table expect him to carry their team (which is why I call him a crutch). Obviously, the better a player, the less the models they're using matter, but there is always an expectation when a player puts a model on the table. Expectation is not very difficult to exploit if you have the means to identify and thwart it.

What is your opponent trying to achieve by putting him on the table? Is he being used to tank? Ignore him. Is he being used to kill things? Stay out of reach or focus him really fast.

[Tokaji]

I think InteroVivo hit the nail on the head. OP is just an excuse in one way or another. The power curve in 'Faux can be a little off sometimes, but honestly, if you build and play towards the strategy and schemes and get out of the mindset that you have to kill everything all the time, then you'll find that success is easier to achieve.

Another way to work around this in game play is to look what else is making the model work. Is he being healed? Kill the healer. Is he being pushed and pulled into position? Kill the caster.

At the very least, and I don't condone this kind of play, if you know you're going to be facing a model you don't like, take a hard counter to it. Izamu's hard counter is Ototo, who can crush his face fairly easily.

Complaining about something being overpowered is just that: complaining. Do something about it instead, and I guarantee you'll not only have more fun, but you'll be a better gamer for it.

[Gruesome]

He is slow without help from his crew.

He does nothing to boost or help any other members of his crew.

Is he awesome when in melee range and is he very hard for many models to kill? Of course. Individually, there are not a ton of models that can stand toe to toe.

Kill his crew... Get VP... Avoid him.

We've been told similar for Chompy for 2+ years...

And as has been said by myself and others here, he can die to good models. I have killed with with LadyJ and had him killed by viks and Chompy.

I believe someone else said they killed him with LadyJ.

Edited March 31, 2013 by Gruesome

[Tokaji]

I've killed Izzy with Izzy, Chompy, and Lilith, and had him killed by minion Misaki, and a Nico dead ball. He's not invincible by any means.

[Mehter]

For 4 points a Belle, Crooked Man, Drowned, or Ashigaru are all going to be a better buy, as they ALL have the potential to mess up your enemy's day if they are used correctly, and using ANY of those models correctly is vastly easier than using the Carrion Effigy correctly.

I don't have a problem with any of this.

I've simply stated a few ways around Izamu, one of which is in fact the effigy, if only for a turn. Was that or was that not a point in the OP? I'm not going to argue for the Effigy against those models, as they are better in almost every situation. But I don't think the Effigy is completely worthless, either.

I still think the best way to kill Izamu, is to simply attack him. I've said that before. A few times.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Sorry, I misunderstood your context. I just find the Carrion Effigy to pretty much be a non entity in the game. I misunderstood you were referring to him in the context of Izamu. Still not a great option, as we both agree, but much more understandable. My Mistake again.

[DeleteAccount]

IntereoVivo, he costs 10 stones, of course he better damn well hold his way during the match. He is pretty much a full third of my list right then and there and the rest of my stones will go to lighter value utility models to get the job done. Izamu does the boogeyman job the same way the dead rider can do it (though Izamu also takes tank while Rider adds movement shenanigans to the bag). Does he excel at it? amazingly, yes, and thank god for that, but I certainly would not field him for 13 stones like another poster said except maybe with Lo and only because he can come back, hell, I'd have a hard time putting him in at 11 and even at 10 he does condition how the rest of the list will go which is to be expected, again, he is a third of your list right there.

As stated, you either ignore him if possible, remove the pieces that make him hard as nails/hit harder or at the very leats nickel and dime him down till he dies. With Lo of course this becomes more problematic, but well, against Yan Lo I'd say your real priority should be killing Lo as fast as possible since he becomes a monster of epic proportions if left to his devices.

[Kalkris]

I played aZoraida + CollodiDollSquad v. aSeamus with Izamu and pals. I destroyed his whole team, manifest, izamu and all at turn 6. I was very adamant about getting rid of aSeamus and did so, leaving Izzy the last of my foe's models to die. But hey, if Collodi can land a killing blow on Izamu, he can't be terribly OP, can he? It is all about focus and removal of support. Remember, while Izamu *can* carry a team as a crutch, if the bottom nub of that crutch is worn and rusty underneath the rubber, he's going down in a flash.

~Lil Kalki

[Mordeqai]

I played aZoraida + CollodiDollSquad v. aSeamus with Izamu and pals. I destroyed his whole team, manifest, izamu and all at turn 6. I was very adamant about getting rid of aSeamus and did so, leaving Izzy the last of my foe's models to die. But hey, if Collodi can land a killing blow on Izamu, he can't be terribly OP, can he? It is all about focus and removal of support. Remember, while Izamu *can* carry a team as a crutch, if the bottom nub of that crutch is worn and rusty underneath the rubber, he's going down in a flash.

~Lil Kalki

I'm sorry, but I can't take "I killed it with Collodi and Avatar Zoraida" as a viable argument to indicate a model's power level. When you're getting upwards of 20 AP from 1 activation, where 80% of those can be paired attacks, you're going to kill whatever you focus.

And I am of the personal opinion, while some others rightfully disagree with me, that Izamu is one of few Rezzer models who can maintain entire self-sufficiency. Many, many of our models are poor on their own (Belles, Canines, Punks), and gain tons of efficiency as their support level rises, while Izamu's "curve" of support-power is much, much less inclined (Disregarding masters). Often times, I run a 25SS list with Nico, Dead Rider, and Izamu, as the entirety of that minion pool is the pinnacle of Rezzer self-sufficiency.

(My apologies if I seem bitter or biased towards Collodi. I try, as this forum post would indicate, to refrain from labeling models overpowered or underpowered, but I cannot rationalize Collodi's balance in my own head. That's the last I will say on him; This is an Izamu thread, and I want to keep it that way I just can't understand Collodi's power level being where it is at the moment)

[Joel]

Izamu is, in no way, overpowered.

He is a solid, well-costed model for ressers, who requires crew synergies to get him to either move at a decent pace or become super-resilient. Most models are improved by such synergy and then play, and I'll not complain that ressers have a nice place to start from, now that they have the armour.

He is not an auto-include in resser lists as to get him with proper support requires lots of stones.

He's fun, and a useful tool.

[nix]

I have had a great time playing a Yan Lo crew lately with Izamu in it. The crew really works to one of my playstyles, and its a lot of fun to see things play out on the board. I do not think Izamu is overpowered, so wanted to read through this thread to gain other perspectives.

There are a couple things I have noticed in the thread, just as a mention. Izamu is I2I but a couple people talk about killing him with WP targeting abilities. :Paralyzed_Puppet:

Izamu can be healed by other models and by hitting severe damage on his own swings. He MUST flip a healing card after hitting for severe by his rule. This, for me, has burned off more good cards than I would want. I have found some situations in my own play where I will cheat down to moderate when a severe is not necessary simply to avoid burning that next card from my deck.

It was also mentioned somewhere that the Dead Rider cannot heal. I really hope I read that wrong, as the Dead Rider has some of the most amazing healing in the game.

I also have to concur with the comment about healing with riposte, I just don't see how that works although if it could that would be great.

I have had Izamu killed multiple times by Hoffman and a Peacekeeper, by a Ramos crew knocking his Df down to 1 (with 2 arachnids), and by a host of other crews ranging from Misaki down to a humble swarm of arachnids. I have personally taken him out reliable with a Misaki crew, a Jakob crew, a Zoraida crew, a Pandora crew, and most reliable with a Justice crew. I enjoy playing against Yan Lo and Izamu as much as playing with him.

I do not think he is overpowered. At 10ss to hire, he takes up a third of my crew (as mentioned). He can be moved reliable with the Soul Porter, but I have to keep the Soul Porter safe. He has some great abilities, but I am still worried about facing a whole host of models (including the dead rider) with him. I have found that Yan Lo (as also mentioned earlier) is a much greater threat than Izamu. In fact, on a recent series of games the players were focusing on removing Yan Lo long before they focused on Izamu.

At the end of the day, Izamu is pretty easy to ignore and there are lots of tools in the game to do so. Make him brilliant and drop a beckoner on him. Make him Brilliant and have Huggy charge him into your own crew. Strip his I2I with an Onroyo, Insidious Madness, or Pandora. Paralyze him with Coppelius. Kill him straight out with kill triggers (its pretty easy to whittle his hand down so he cannot cancel the trigger) such as Decapitate, Head Shot, or other triggers. Hit him real hard or just simply hit him a lot. All of these are simple ways to deal with him.

At the end of the day, Izamu is all about killing models and staying alive. He does not actually do anything else. He is one of the book 4 beater models, which I group together in the same category. Sirdar, Izamu, Ototo, Kang, Rail Golem are all very tough models to take down who hit very hard. They all have some type of decent defense to be resistant to damage, all have some type of healing, and all wreck face in combat. (Sirdar a little less on the wreck face than the others)

I would love to see some of the older models in the 9-10 point price range be brought up to the level of those models. At the same time, I do think there exists some models that are already in the same category.

[Mentat_Canis]

Having faced him several times now I am becoming to lean more towards very good but not broken, overpowering but not oppressive. What has made him so good for the most part has already been said the combination of reposte, object, healing, positive twists, and I2I. But what makes him amazing is the faster movement with soul porter(1 master) and the ability to give support around him with summoning other models that need to be dealt with. I have not scene him with Kirai which I heard is good but until I see it I won't comment.

He is the best minion in book 4 but I think you can deal with him by a good plan and understanding his threat range and killing support, though models like him got a huge boost in the new gaining grounds where speed is good but not everything, it also gave Ressers a huge boost as a faction with the new strategies.

The main reason I have started to turn from broken to just really good is that the negating triggers is very good vs head-shot or disappearing act but you will almost never see them throw a card to get rid of flay or critical strike because most times giving a straight flip is riskier then the extra 2 points of damage. And without hard to wound a charge action can take large chunks out or if you take out the extra speed he can get you just avoid him. This being said he was a pushed model that is on the razor edge of no weakness, and I for one do not like seeing models pushed this far.

These are my 2 cents think he is great and best minion book 4, I think he is a little uninspired and just a combination of great abilities but broken no because of the 10ss and it makes me sad when other models at that ss level with the same job just don't match up, though I can argue ressers now have the 2 best 10ss models in the game.

[nix]

Thats a great perspective Mentat, although I am not sure I agree (about the combination of great abilities). I think he has great abilities but I do feel they all come together and support the story of the model. When I look at a model that is really good but really just has a grouping of (in my opinion) disparate abilities I look at Tuco. There are some abilities on Tuco I just don't understand why he has them.

[Kalkris]

I'm sorry, but I can't take "I killed it with Collodi and Avatar Zoraida" as a viable argument to indicate a model's power level. When you're getting upwards of 20 AP from 1 activation, where 80% of those can be paired attacks, you're going to kill whatever you focus.

And I am of the personal opinion, while some others rightfully disagree with me, that Izamu is one of few Rezzer models who can maintain entire self-sufficiency. Many, many of our models are poor on their own (Belles, Canines, Punks), and gain tons of efficiency as their support level rises, while Izamu's "curve" of support-power is much, much less inclined (Disregarding masters). Often times, I run a 25SS list with Nico, Dead Rider, and Izamu, as the entirety of that minion pool is the pinnacle of Rezzer self-sufficiency.

(My apologies if I seem bitter or biased towards Collodi. I try, as this forum post would indicate, to refrain from labeling models overpowered or underpowered, but I cannot rationalize Collodi's balance in my own head. That's the last I will say on him; This is an Izamu thread, and I want to keep it that way I just can't understand Collodi's power level being where it is at the moment)

For the record, it was literally only Collodi and aZ v aSeamus and Izzy in the end. I did not have any marionettes left. It was ONLY Collodi who killed Izamu, and if there is some sort of super-secret means to abuse Collodi (alone), I had not found or used it. That said, I did get an RJ-into-severe on one damage flip so maybe that invalidates it a bit...

I don't believe that Izamu is unstoppable, but he IS very VERY hard to put down, especially under Yan Lo.

~Lil Kalki

[Uncle Caveman]

Even with Izamu's cool trigger negation, it is almost impossible to completely mitigate crit strike from a guild crew. There just aren't that many rams in a deck. I have never had an issue with him. Call it simple, a lack of strategy, or whatever but I just make an effort to kill or divert him. He's pretty expensive and if he's not on a killing rampage then those points are wasted. Do I always kill him? Well, yes. Luck has made that happen more than any real plan, though. Will I always kill him? Probably not. He is a great model. Do I feel I am being cheated when someone puts him down in opposition to me? No. To quote the wonderful realm of 2000 cinema "Bring it on". Now I feel terrible for typing that.

[011121]

I'm sorry, but I can't take "I killed it with Collodi and Avatar Zoraida" as a viable argument to indicate a model's power level. When you're getting upwards of 20 AP from 1 activation, where 80% of those can be paired attacks, you're going to kill whatever you focus.

And I am of the personal opinion, while some others rightfully disagree with me, that Izamu is one of few Rezzer models who can maintain entire self-sufficiency. Many, many of our models are poor on their own (Belles, Canines, Punks), and gain tons of efficiency as their support level rises, while Izamu's "curve" of support-power is much, much less inclined (Disregarding masters). Often times, I run a 25SS list with Nico, Dead Rider, and Izamu, as the entirety of that minion pool is the pinnacle of Rezzer self-sufficiency.

(My apologies if I seem bitter or biased towards Collodi. I try, as this forum post would indicate, to refrain from labeling models overpowered or underpowered, but I cannot rationalize Collodi's balance in my own head. That's the last I will say on him; This is an Izamu thread, and I want to keep it that way I just can't understand Collodi's power level being where it is at the moment)

Ironically, Izamu is a good example of the kind of target a collodi player has to be very wary of. He has only decent Defense, but has riposte plus the ability to heal off of his ripostes. That makes for a sad little puppetmaker. I say this as a Collodi player. Riposte, AoE ranged attacks, and damage shields are his banes.

[The Godlyness]

its been said before it will be said again, Izamu does not heal of of riposte.

Carve a swathe. this model makes a healing flip after inflicting severe damage with a melee Strike.

Riposte is not a melee strike. it just inflicts damage using the difference in the combat totals.

he only heals if he Makes a melee strike against something and inflicts severe dg.

[011121]

my mistake. The larger point still stands.

[Kalkris]

its been said before it will be said again, Izamu does not heal of of riposte.

Carve a swathe. this model makes a healing flip after inflicting severe damage with a melee Strike.

Riposte is not a melee strike. it just inflicts damage using the difference in the combat totals.

he only heals if he Makes a melee strike against something and inflicts severe dg.

Uhhhhh.... Excuse me but you are incorrect.

Riposte's text says, on Izamu, "After attacker misses with a melee attack, this model inflicts damage with this Weapon using the Combat Duel total as if it had hit the attacker."

Normally this would cause confusion, but look at Lady Justice's v2 card here. It says the same thing, but with an added "with a Greatsword Strike" before the period at the end. Clearly Izamu's wording is shorthand because what else could Izamu hit with besides his Dadao? LJ has 2 weapons so it has to be mentioned but Izamu does not. It is clearly shorthand.

And before you bring up that "he didnt actually attack so he didn't make the strike," realize that it is "as if he had made the strike". It's all retroactive replacement. Therefore, hitting a Severe on any Dadao strike, even one fabricated from Riposte, will have Izamu's Carve a Swathe go off.

Please look into your cross-references and reasoning before making these assumptions. LJ is one of the, if not THE, most iconic Riposte using models in the game. She has 2 weapons. It has to be said with which weapon she "struck" with. Izamu does not, so it is not necessary but the point is still there (he did Strike, only retroactively).

Sorry if this puts some sort of bee in your bonnet but if it does, you may as well ask a Rules Marshal and see what they say.

~Lil Kalki

EDIT: Silly fact but Izamu also isn't an Ancestor. According to the card, he is an "Ancesor" XD

A typo, I know, but something silly to bring up regardless haha

Edited April 13, 2013 by Kalkris

[mephiston]

As every model has bash, Izamu has two melee weapons. And I don't think you can take the text from one card and apply it to another, even if the abilities have the same name.

[Kalkris]

...Which is actually why Riposte is listed as "Riposte [Dadao]". It is shorthand. And yes, Izamu is newer and says less words. With that in mind, yes, go ahead and ask a Rules Marshal. You can absolutely take the text from one model and apply it to another if it is the same exact spell/talent. Granted, some rules are outdated, but that's why I looked at the v2 for Lady Justice and not the original card.

Besides, answer me this: "...as if it had hit the attacker." Hit? With what? Izamu has no spells, only weapons. What do you do with weapons?

~Lil Kalki

[The Godlyness]

@lil kalki

Did Izamu Use a (1) Action Strike

Is Riposte a (1) Strike

A Strike action is Defined on Page 39 of the small rule book.

Since Riposte is not a Strike Action then Mr. Izamu CANNOT benefit from Carve a swathe.

Now since that has been said what is your counter argument of how Riposte is a (1) Melee Strike Action

Pulled from the FAQ also

Is a Strike generated as part of a Trigger, Charge, or other effect an Action?

Only the(1) Strike Action is a Strike Action. Other Actions which include a Strike are not " Strike Actions"

Edited April 13, 2013 by The Godlyness
more proof to add

[011121]

@lil kalki

Did Izamu Use a (1) Action Strike

Is Riposte a (1) Strike

A Strike action is Defined on Page 39 of the small rule book.

Since Riposte is not a Strike Action then Mr. Izamu CANNOT benefit from Carve a swathe.

Now since that has been said what is your counter argument of how Riposte is a (1) Melee Strike Action

Pulled from the FAQ also

Is a Strike generated as part of a Trigger, Charge, or other effect an Action?

Only the(1) Strike Action is a Strike Action. Other Actions which include a Strike are not " Strike Actions"

Okay but Carve a Swath says nothing about strike actions, merely strikes.

I would think the key is how riposte says you inflict damage as if you had hit the attacker. Well if you flip severe damage when hitting someone as Izamu you get a healing flip. I guess it depends on just how well "as if you had hit the attacker" fills in for "a melee strike on the attacker."

Edited April 13, 2013 by 011121