Gruesome Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 For example in NB if I'm using the Twins, Stitched together, Tuco, Coppelius,The Ganger, or Primordial magic am I using a "crutch"? You can abbreviate that to "Gencon List". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 IntereoVivo, so then what isn't a "crutch"? By your definition everything you take in the game is taken to make something easier, and therefore everything is a crutch. If I need a brawler I'm going to take the most efficient Brawler I can. If that brawler is killed and I now have to do without him and it is difficult, that is therefore a "crutch"? So by your argument Every Model should be a generalist and not a critical part of any list? I really feel in your argument you are reaching. A player who always uses Izamu isn't going to be some special case player who isn't "as good" as someone who doesn't. A good player is going to overcome his loss and a bad one might not. Does that therefore mean that all the Masters in the Game are crutches? In a good percentage of cases if you lose your master, while the game isn't over, it is going to be extremely difficult for that player to win. So by definition are Masters "crutches"? It's the same fallacious argument, which, to my mind, and I'm in no way indicating this is true in your case, is a shield for a player's ego. If a player loses to a player using what is considered a "crutch" model then that losing player consoles himself with "Well it's not because you are a good player, it's because you were propping up your inferior skill with that auto take." Now I'm not saying that there are not balance issues in the game, I feel very passionately that there are, but to my mind skill at the game is also enhanced by your choice at which models you choose to hire. I'm not using a crutch if I choose to use the most efficient models for their intended roles in the game, I'm making intelligent use of my resources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mehter Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 I think the idea of the crutch (At least in my experience) is simply a bad player playing something that he thinks is OP, and expects it to win all his games. And if that crutch is taken away, bad things happen. Good players use those same models, but when they're killed it doesn't ruin the game. Like the Abomination for Skaven, if any of you have dabbled in Fantasy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 He is not terrifying and must target a single model at a time. I am not particularly familiar with that sort of gremlin crew, but I actually think that a gremlin gunline would wipe him off the board simply by number of attacks. Accepting that you will not do more than 1 point of damage most of the time, the question becomes, how quickly can I hit him 10 times? This is the easiest way to deal with Izamu. He has so much durability built in that one or two shoting him is pretty much impossible (especially if he is a Spirit). However he still dies to 10 Successful strikes. The Gremlin Gunline can easily put out that many successful strikes (especially if the Izamu player can't cheat the Df or if Ophelia is in the bunch negating Woops!). Nothing stands in front of the Ophelia Death Star past a turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 To reply to the Immune To Influence thing from my first post, don't underestimate our Effigy. He may not survive long, but he can screw up a turn or two for your opponent if played correctly. "Played Correctly"... That's sort of a loaded phrase IMO. Not particularly fond of what it implies about players that have seldom had the Carrion Effigy do much for them. If I were to reword your above statement, I might suggest that it is more often the case that: "he can screw up a turn or two for your opponent if they allow him to get ridiculously close to their models for some insane reason." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mehter Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 Or played correctly. Like it or don't, it still works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 Or played correctly. Like it or don't, it still works. Its actually one of my favorite sculpts in the game. I proxy it the most often. As himself, not worth the points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 +1. For 4 points a Belle, Crooked Man, Drowned, or Ashigaru are all going to be a better buy, as they ALL have the potential to mess up your enemy's day if they are used correctly, and using ANY of those models correctly is vastly easier than using the Carrion Effigy correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 And none of those models prevent you from taking the best value in the faction... Grave Spirit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sssk Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 Which links us nicely back to the actual topic of the thread. Izamu... he works well with the grave spirit (why am I not a top radio producer, with links like that?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stepfan Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 Well I took him out with the Rouge Necromancy the other day. Charged, Fang Striked three times, got him down to 2 wounds and then he activated and went poof from poison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgarbonzo Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 Leveticus can kill him in 2 spells and still summon a SPA off of his sacrifice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeleteAccount Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 Frankly, I don't see the problem here. Maybe because I face a lot of beatdown crews, but Lady J has had no problem beating the living crap out of him on a constant basis and I have no doubt the viks would turn him into scrap quick and proper. Also, negating triggers is all nice and dandy, when you can actually negate them, I don't know how your hands are, but most times I tend to have 1-2 cards to control the dangerous triggers and I've already had situations where that was nowhere near close to enough, also, and even more important, are you actually going to blow a 10 or 11 of a card even if you still get hit that may be needed to summon something to avoid a trigger? Those resources are finite and they will hurt you. The extra arm from the grave spirit makes him a lot harder of course, but my opponent either nuked it with AOE or killed it before focusing Izamu. The spirit shenanigans with Kirai I haven't tried and spirit with Yan Lo is not reliable. He is a strong piece no doubt, but he better damn well be at 10 points, I already have enough of stuff like Molly or the Rogue. As for the Dead Rider, he is a beast too, only he has another job and is more dependant on getting a grave spirit so he is able to keep on trucking longer. I've had both do fantastic and fail horribly and crews like Pandora will have a field day with him or a Patient Colette that waits until the end to do her maniquin swap trick can utterly destroy that big expensive model. I'm in the camp that Izamu is at it's most dangerous with Yan Lo, simply because the moment you know that if he does die it doesn't mean you are 10 stones and a huge beatstick down it lets you use him more aggressively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekromanced Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 Levi can't 3 hit Izamu unless he is in melee to get sever off. Levi's spells half wounds +1.....which would be 6, but -2 because of object 2. Giving him 6 wounds left.....next is 4-2, leaving him with 4 wounds left. Its a pretty effective way for knocking him around, but you better hope you either have other models to take him down, or win the next initiative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeleteAccount Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 Levi can't 3 hit Izamu unless he is in melee to get sever off. Levi's spells half wounds +1.....which would be 6, but -2 because of object 2. Giving him 6 wounds left.....next is 4-2, leaving him with 4 wounds left. Its a pretty effective way for knocking him around, but you better hope you either have other models to take him down, or win the next initiative. Object, armour or spirit do nothing against Levi's Unnatural Wasting because it directly does wounds. Wounds go over all damage reducing mechanisms and stuff like hard to kill. Damage is the keyword that applies arm, object and all that. If something manages to peg poison 4 on Izamu for whatever reason and he can't heal, he is 100% dead in it's 4th activation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekromanced Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 Armour negates damage only, object negates damage/wounds. Otherwise, whats the point of having the "object" characteristics when there's alread the trait for armour/magical resistance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordeqai Posted March 31, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 Actually, Object is the only thing that Levi doesn't get around. Spirits halve Dg, Armor reduces Dg, but Object negates Wds. Absolutely nothing can surpass Object unless it specifically states it does, such as Willie's weapon description. And my god, does an Armored Spirit Rock take some weird math to hurt O.O ---------- Post added at 02:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:47 PM ---------- Well I took him out with the Rouge Necromancy the other day. Charged, Fang Striked three times, got him down to 2 wounds and then he activated and went poof from poison. In relation the the above few posts, did he reduce the Poison to 1 Wd from Object? Poison 4 would be the only thing that'd kill him there. Then he'd probably throw a fwe attacks on the RN, get Sever, and heal back up to about 5-6 Wds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bedknobs Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 I've made a mess of a spirited-grave spirited-Izamu before with Huggy. Magical tendrils get you past the spirit, Brilliance gets through I2I, and you can then Heed My Voice on him to get rid of that pesky grave spirit. Throw in a few soulstones to make sure of it and drain a few wounds directly to finish things off and it should work rather well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mydnight Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 Having been on the receiving end of Mordeqai's Izamu more often than I'd care to remember I'd have to say that he is overpowered. It's true Fetid, he is. In my opinion the big issue with Izamu comes down to his healing flip. Anytime he deals severe damage he gets to make a healing flip, and with the Dadao's positive twist on damage you're going to be able to cheat damage a significant portion of the time. Having a defense of 5 when models of a similar caliber means that he's going to be harder to hit, and if he gets his riposte and cheats damage there's a healing flip for him. The positive twist on his attacks increases the likelihood of him getting up to severe without a cheat. With his object 2 reducing incoming damage you have to dedicate a lot of attacks at him, and if he gets his riposte off there's the chance that you'll be taking a step or two back in your attempts to destruct him. Throw in the Grave Spirit and the job just got harder. From what I've encountered some of the better (read: more viable, not necessarily effective) tactics for Izamu are: Shoot him with an unending barrage or after he activates, and avoid him. In smaller games you can't spare the models/resources to try and take him on, and in larger games you're going to have other threats to deal with. When you're trying to achieve schemes and strategies Izamu is a pain, but if all you do is focus on him then maybe you can take him out. The tradeoff there is that your opponent gets to maneuver his models and achieve his schemes and strategy. This is just Izamu in general, and I haven't even addressed what happens when he's taken with a specific master. Watch Nicodem paralyze models attacking Izamu, only for Izamu to steamroll them on his activation. McMourning has enough attack power to start chewing through models without regard. Kirai is Kirai. Seamus is the only one I haven't really messed around with, but having fast belles to pull models into Izamu's melee range where they will likely stay a turn or two is a probable strategy (don't quote me on this though). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeleteAccount Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 OK, thanks for the correction about object. As for Izamu healing through ripostes, it doesn't work, Izamu heals when he does a severe with a melee Strike, when you riposte, you aren't doing a melee Strike, you just inflict damage directly. So no, you shouldn't worry about him healing himself through riposte's. The other part is that yes, he hits hard, but his cb 6 (except with Nico) can be blocked more times than not as long as Izamu's card flipping to hit isn't too hot, I've had him flop hard on me a few times already. Toshiro would help to make this less of an issue, but Toshiro is a lot easier to kill, so no problem there. Finally, don't bother going for Izamu until you take out the Grave Spirit, yes, it's one or 2 less attacks heading towards izamu, but once nuked, it's a LOT easier to take him down and it stops focus spell shenanigans too. Def 5 object 2 is not that hard to take down, it's the extra arm or spirit which can make it hellish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_was_like_you Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 (edited) Object, armour or spirit do nothing against Levi's Unnatural Wasting because it directly does wounds. Wounds go over all damage reducing mechanisms and stuff like hard to kill. Damage is the keyword that applies arm, object and all that. If something manages to peg poison 4 on Izamu for whatever reason and he can't heal, he is 100% dead in it's 4th activation. Armor and spirit deal with damage. Object reduces wounds, after armor and spirt, etc., do their reductions. Object #: Models with the Object # Characteristic are non-living models. Reduce the number of Wd suffered by a model with the Object characteristic by the number (#) indicated, to a minimum of 1. That's what makes models with not only Object, but Armor and Spirit, such as Izamu can have, so dangerous. Halve the damage due to Spirit, reduce it by Armor #, then reduce those wounds by the Object #. Edited March 31, 2013 by i_was_like_you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 Stating something is true does not make it so Mydnight, as we well know. I don't think Izamu is Overpowered. You could in theory make the argument, and I'm not making this or endorsing this argument, that the current crop of models in the game as it currently stands are more powerful than is good for the game. If Izamu is too powerful then so is the Rail Golem, Misaki, Yan Lo, Mei Feng, The Hungering Darkness, etc. Izamu is a piece contemporary with the state of the game as is, which, unfortunately, has left many models behind. In the recent example game we played of Yan Lo vs Perdita, without Izamu please explain to me exactly who I could have brought that could have dealt with Perdita? Df 8 + SS + being deadly with her gun and extremely fast. Yan Lo's best spells dealing with Wp, of which she is immune to and the vast majority of the common models that are brought also getting bonuses to wp duels, which means that my most common means of attack will hit far often less than yours. I can at least accept the argument as valid, even if I don't agree with it, that the case could be made that with Yan Lo he might be at a level that needs to be looked at because of the cycling, but I'm not even as convinced by that, although I can at least understand the arguement. Again I'll say the best way to deal with Izamu is to do the same things you'd do to deal with Perdita, focus ALL your attacks to burn the model down rapidly, or do your best to ignore it and win in another way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sssk Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 Again I'll say the best way to deal with Izamu is to do the same things you'd do to deal with Perdita, focus ALL your attacks to burn the model down rapidly, or do your best to ignore it and win in another way. That's what I'd do. Feed him a Jackalope and get on with achieving my objectives Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekromanced Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 I agree with Strumpet.....but I can't see anyone making an argument to look at Yan Lo about recycling Izamu. He's suppose to be a rezer master, but all he can summon is his ancestors he has already paid for with stones. If he could summon ancestors with a 13 of a suit that he didn't have to pay for, then yeah, he'd be a recycling king. If you want to talk about masters who needs their level changed, then Yan Lo isn't where they should start. Id much rather go against Izamu and Yan Lo then Pandora with Collodi, Mr. Tannen, the doopleganger, and a few stitched together. That crew makes Pandora ridiculous, the ancestors make Yan Lo good, but not as silly as that. If they change Yan Lo before even looking at the other masters, then theres a huge issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 Also its not like he returns them with full wounds upon a successful Rebuild Corpus cast unless you also dump 5 Corpse Counters into the casting. Add in the Grave Spirit having to re-establish the link for Armor and then Yan Lo having to re-cast Transcend the Physical (which cant be done in the same activation due to being a competing 0 action) and you are dedicating a large amount of resources to keeping this going. Also consider that with the Grave Spirit in the list instead of the Soul Porter Yan Lo (or Chiaki) is going to have to also be within 8" of Izamu to collect that Relic Card to even cast Rebuild Corpus, meaning he is close enough to attack and kill. It is a potent combination for sure however for as resource intensive as it is it better be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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