Meaning of "Miss" for Woops!

[BC3]

I attempt a ranged strike with a bayou gremlin at a model very far away. The model is in LOS but determined to be out of range. The action "fails" as per rules manual Pg 42.

A) This is a miss because the ranged strike occurred and missed automatically.

This is a miss because no strike occurred and thus the target wasn't hit.

C) This is not a miss because a ranged strike occurred but the defender didn't have a higher duel total.

D) This is not a miss because no ranged strike occurred and there was no shot to miss.

My apologies if this has already been addressed, I was not able to find it by searching the forum.

[Omenbringer]

Based on the strike sequence from page 40 of the Malifaux 1.5 it would Fail due to not being a Legal Target however it isn't really clear if that is the same thing as Failure due to duel result.

Were I running an event though I would rule it as a Miss that results in Whoops! having to be resolved.

[BC3]

I agree that the action fails for the lack of a legal target. From a fluff perspective, it seems like a gremlin would just let loose with his firearm willy-nilly, and I can live with it being subject to all sorts of gremliney mishaps.

That being said, pg 39 of the manual says that a strike is made against a target in range (which there was not) and that it generates a Cb vs Df duel (which it didn't). It doesn't seem to be able to qualify as a missed strike because it doesn't seem to satisfy the requirements for being a strike in the first place.

[Omenbringer]

That being said, pg 39 of the manual says that a strike is made against a target in range (which there was not) and that it generates a Cb vs Df duel (which it didn't). It doesn't seem to be able to qualify as a missed strike because it doesn't seem to satisfy the requirements for being a strike in the first place.

Page 39 of the Rules Manual are only General Rules for Strikes, Page 42-43 (of the Rules Manual) are the Specific Strike Sequence Rules (these are similar in the newer Malifaux 1.5 edition book however are found on pages 40-41) and trump the general.

The relevant parts are Step 1 and Step 2E.

In step 1 you Declare a Target and then Check Range. If the target is not in LOS then it is not a legal target and the Strike Fails, if the target is not in Range then it is not a legal target and the Strike Fails.

If the target is in both LOS and Range then you proceed to the Strike Duel and step 2. All the way down in Step 2E you again determine whether the Duel has Succeeded or Failed.

The term Miss (used in the description of the Woops! ability) is not defined in either book only Success or Failure.

Giving that a Strike was declared by the Bayou Gremlin (step 1 of the Strike Resolution Sequence) and due to being out of range the Strike failed, Woops! would resolve (as long as there was another Friendly model within LOS and 10" of the Bayou Gremlin).

[Gremlin guy]

Since their is nothing that defines a miss, I would view this more along the lines of casting. When checking to see if you can cast, be it range, los, or the TN to cast, this is all determined before the defender needs to flip. If the conditions are not met, the spell is not cast and it is neither, what I would consider, a miss or a hit. Just a failure. To miss, I would think the shot needs to go off.

Of course, I don't have the rule book in front of me, I'm still learning everything, and I may be biased to gremlins, but those are just my thoughts.

[Omenbringer]

To miss, I would think the shot needs to go off.

The Strike has already gone off (been declared begining the Strike Resolution Sequence) and Failed (missed).

...I would view this more along the lines of casting. When checking to see if you can cast, be it range, los, or the TN to cast, this is all determined before the defender needs to flip. If the conditions are not met, the spell is not cast and it is neither, what I would consider, a miss or a hit.

The action (AP) was declared, used and failed. Spells dont miss or hit anymore than Combat actions do, they either Succeed or Fail. Being out of LOS, Range or not making the CC value all result in failure of the spell. If the spell has a resist associated with it and the target makes it the spell doesn't "miss" it fails.

Edited March 31, 2013 by Omenbringer

[BC3]

So what you are saying (if I read it right):

Any time you declare a strike you are "making a strike" (even if you are knowingly or unknowingly choosing an illegal target). If you do not subsequently meet or beat the defender's total you are going to shoot your green buddies.

[Omenbringer]

So what you are saying (if I read it right):

Any time you declare a strike you are "making a strike" (even if you are knowingly or unknowingly choosing an illegal target). If you do not subsequently meet or beat the defender's total you are going to shoot your green buddies.

That is exactly what I am saying.

You have declared the Strike and begin deteremining Success or Failure from that moment on.

There are two ways to Fail the Strike, either you have attempted to attack an illegal target (out of LOS or Range) or the target has achieved a higher Duel total. Either way the Strike was made, failed and would result in a "Miss" leading to Woops! having to be resolved (once again as long as a friendly model is with in both LOS and 10" of the Failing Bayou Gremlin's Boom Stick).

[Gremlin guy]

To play Devil's advocate, and to get a better understanding of the rules in general, why wouldn't the ranged strike follow the same ruling as general actions you can not do, covered in the FAQ?

Q. What happens when a model attempts something that it couldn't do, like cast a Spell to create an additional Rare model when my Crew's maximum number of that model are in play, or casts a borrowed Spell that requires a Weapon/Ability my model doesn't have?

A. You cannot attempt the Action. If the Action would not work, reset back to before the Action began. If an event would require the model to enter play (such as a Pine Boxed third Viktoria coming into play when a Death Marshal is removed from play) the model does not enter play.

It seems that in this case, the model is attempting something it can't do, e.g attack something out of its range. If you reset to before the action began, then you wouldn't have fired, and could not miss.

Edit**

It's hard to delete and retype on the iPad, but after re-reading your response to me, I decided to review the strike resolution sequence.

Range is determined in step 1. If the target is in range (as well as Los, etc..) you proceed to step 2. If not, you don't.

Step 2e is where you determine success. In the first bullet, ..."it wins the duel and Hits the defender.(success)

Second bullet, "Otherwise, the defender wins the duel and is not hit by the attack. (failure)

The holds are my own, but this just reinforces my believe that declaring a strike against an opponent out of range is a failure, but not a miss. While the word miss isn't specifically used, miss is the opposit of hit in this scenario and I believe this is when the miss would occur.

I apologize for the long post.

Edited April 1, 2013 by Gremlin guy

[Ryu]

To play Devil's advocate, and to get a better understanding of the rules in general, why wouldn't the ranged strike follow the same ruling as general actions you can not do, covered in the FAQ?

Q. What happens when a model attempts something that it couldn't do, like cast a Spell to create an additional Rare model when my Crew's maximum number of that model are in play, or casts a borrowed Spell that requires a Weapon/Ability my model doesn't have?

A. You cannot attempt the Action. If the Action would not work, reset back to before the Action began. If an event would require the model to enter play (such as a Pine Boxed third Viktoria coming into play when a Death Marshal is removed from play) the model does not enter play.

Shooting is not an illegal action. This refer to things that are impossible via rules (breaking unique/rare limits, a spell targeting something with the wrong characteristic or that would otherwise fail on basic requirements - not due to range). Though I do agree with you with your order sequence. A miss, at least in my group, has always constituted you failing the opposed duel. You don't miss if you're out of range - if you're out of range the shot doesn't even go off.

[BC3]

The real question is whether a "miss" requires a failed duel or a "miss" is any strike that fails somewhere along the way.

Food for thought: it seems like if any failed strike action will trigger Woops! then Harmless would fit the bill if a gremlin failed to overcome the WP duel. This would mean that your gremlins will more often than not refuse to shoot cuddly and innocent things and blast their buddies instead.

Edited April 1, 2013 by BC3

[Omenbringer]

Shooting is not an illegal action. This refer to things that are impossible via rules ...You don't miss if you're out of range - if you're out of range the shot doesn't even go off.

You are correct on the first portion however not so sure on the second. You have declared the Strike (shot) and begun resolution of success or failure. The strike (shot) has gone off (AP has been spent) and has failed due to being out of range.

The real question is whether a "miss" requires a failed duel or a "miss" is any strike that fails somewhere along the way.

A "Miss" should be any strike that Fails along the way.

Food for thought: it seems like if any failed strike action will trigger Woops! then Harmless would fit the bill if a gremlin failed to overcome the WP duel. This would mean that your gremlins will more often than not refuse to shoot cuddly and innocent things and blast their buddies instead.

Makes sense, the strike has been declared and the check for Harmless interupts the normal strike sequence, occuring prior to checking LOS and Range or Duel. Failing the Harmless simple Duel does immediately cause the action to fail.

[Gremlin guy]

Your last point, to me, further strengthens the argument that a failure does not always equal a miss. While not specifically written out, the harmless ability seems to imply that you simply wouldn't shoot at a model, not that it's so cute and cuddly it throws your aim off. If you didn't shoot, you can neither hit nor miss.

Again, looking at the comat sequence the measure distance comes in step 1. Harmless comes before distance. If you fail at these, you can not proceed to step 2.

Step 2 is when you generate the strike duel. By my logic (which, admittedly, may be off) if you can't begin to generate the strike duel, you can not attempt the strike and can neither hit, nor miss, but simply fail to fire the weapon.

While not wanting to drag this out, as a new player, it's rules like this (which rely on non-game terms) that frustrate me the most.