Leveticus/Nicodim questions

[Gremlin guy]

I've been looking at Leveticus lately, and since I have Nicodim, a few questions popped up.

1. If Nico kills an enemy desolation engine with decay or a cane strike and triggers Empty Vessel, what is generated?

a). 3 mindless zombies and 2 Steam punk abominations, or

just the SPAs

If Leveticus is leading a brawl, can he use pariah to take Nico as the second master via embrace death?

Does eternally shackled happen at the start or end of the closing phase?

Thanks

[Kadeton]

1) 3 Zombies and 2 SPAs. Neither rule is mutually exclusive (both specify that the killed model generates no counters).

2) Pretty sure that's a no - I think there's a discussion floating around on these forums.

3) That's a weird one - by what's written, I'd say it happens at neither the Start or End, which leaves it in the Resolve Effects step. In practical terms, I've always played it as occurring at the end of the Start Closing Phase.

[Mordeqai]

A. Empty Vessel simply states that the model will not drop Corpse Counters

And I'm one of the few people who argue that nico can be taken with Levi, because Embrace Death states "This model can choose to gain the Undead characteristic when affected by Talents or Spells that affect Undead"

Pariah, the thing that allows Levi to hire Undead from any faction, is indeed a Talent.

Edited March 25, 2013 by Mordeqai
Added stuff

[pytrFenrir]

This is probably not helpful but official crew creator does not allow Nico to Brawl with Levi. I would take it as Wyrd's intent that this pairing is not allowed. I don't think they are far back enough rules wise to change that ruling, They are both book 1 masters.

After facing him, Levi is powerful enough without someone raising zombies upon zombies about the place

[Omenbringer]

Does eternally shackled happen at the start or end of the closing phase?

3) That's a weird one - by what's written, I'd say it happens at neither the Start or End, which leaves it in the Resolve Effects step. In practical terms, I've always played it as occurring at the end of the Start Closing Phase.

There was some discussion about this during the Interaction of Hamelin's Indiscriminant Void and the Gremlin Taxidermist's Dud thread.

[Ausplosions]

A. Empty Vessel simply states that the model will not drop Corpse Counters

And I'm one of the few people who argue that nico can be taken with Levi, because Embrace Death states "This model can choose to gain the Undead characteristic when affected by Talents or Spells that affect Undead"

Pariah, the thing that allows Levi to hire Undead from any faction, is indeed a Talent.

Indeed. But it doesn't affect Undead. It affects Levi.

This is most definitely a no.

[Gremlin guy]

Thanks to all. For the first one, I was thinking since MZs are corpse counters, my friends may argue they couldn't be made. However, since Nico's ability says the same thing, I have my counter argument.

If I wanted to argue the hiring, I would say empty vessel is a hiring effect that affects both the hiring and hired model, but I think RAI they shouldn't be on the same crew and will leave it alone.