(Another) Hamelin the Ratcatcher question

[Smoje_DK]

Howdy....

Quick Q about Hamelin the Ratcatcher's Growing Influence:

If Hamelin hires a Terror Tot through Growing Influence, and that Tot uses it's (1) Grow to turn into a Mature Nephilim, essentially replacing (= remove from play RM p38) the Tot Hamelin originally hired, may the Mature Nephilim then ignore the whole 'activate within 10'' of Hamelin or be sacrificed' ?

[Ausplosions]

Yup.

[Ryu]

Howdy....

Quick Q about Hamelin the Ratcatcher's Growing Influence:

If Hamelin hires a Terror Tot through Growing Influence, and that Tot uses it's (1) Grow to turn into a Mature Nephilim, essentially replacing (= remove from play RM p38) the Tot Hamelin originally hired, may the Mature Nephilim then ignore the whole 'activate within 10'' of Hamelin or be sacrificed' ?

On second thought, I'm not sure. This effect is not on the Ht 1 model. I'll let someone more knowledgeable tackle it.

Edited March 19, 2013 by Ryu

[Ausplosions]

On second thought, I'm not sure. This effect is not on the Ht 1 model. I'll let someone more knowledgeable tackle it.

Sure it is. And the model hired by Hamelins abiltiy no longer exists.

[Ryu]

If that's the case and the effect is on the original model, it would be on the model that replaces it. Pg. 38 clearly says that all effects on the model are placed on the model replacing it.

If, however, the effect is on Hamelin then I'd agree that the Mature Nephilim can ignore it because the original model is no longer in play.

[Smoje_DK]

If that's the case and the effect is on the original model, it would be on the model that replaces it. Pg. 38 clearly says that all effects on the model are placed on the model replacing it.

My reasoning for this is, that - in my opnion - it's a circumstance (must activate within range) that leads to an effect (sacrifice the model) on the Ht1 model hired as per the Growing Influence ability description, and not an effect actually on the Ht1 model. And as the original Ht1 model hired is removed from play, well.....

[Hateful Darkblack]

I am totally unsure of the answer to this.

[Kadeton]

Both interpretations are easily supported by the rules - only a Rules Marshal could definitively settle this.

Going by the general principle that the less rorty interpretation is almost always correct, I'd play it that the Young Nephilim (or Mature) would be sacrificed if it activates outside of 10".

Here's a hideous thought experiment: A Viks crew hires Vanessa and Hamelin. Vanessa brings in a Steampunk Arachnid Swarm, and Hamelin brings in a Steampunk Arachnid. The Swarm splits into three Arachnids, and then two of those swarm together with Hamelin's Arachnid into a new Swarm. The Swarm activates more than 10" away from Hamelin. Does it get sacrificed?

[Smoje_DK]

Here's a hideous thought experiment: A Viks crew hires Vanessa and Hamelin. Vanessa brings in a Steampunk Arachnid Swarm, and Hamelin brings in a Steampunk Arachnid. The Swarm splits into three Arachnids, and then two of those swarm together with Hamelin's Arachnid into a new Swarm. The Swarm activates more than 10" away from Hamelin. Does it get sacrificed?

I'm inclined to say no, due to the fact that the Steampunk Arachnids are sacrificed - i.e. removed from play and game (RM p13) - when using (1) Swarm Together and replaced with a swarm.

I'd be really interested in hearing anyone elses take on this though

[Adran]

I agree with Kadeton, I think the issue is too grey for us to get a difinetive answer from the rules.

But Thats not going to stop me having a go anyway.

I am going to be going on the approach that Growing Influence puts an effect upon the model Hamelin hired. As such in the case of the Arachnid/swarm example, the effect would transfer from the individual arachnid to the swarm, so after it breaks up, all 3 of the arachnids would be suffering from the effect. The Swarm Together/Apart rule specifies that any effects on the model(s) transfer to the new model(s).

Like wise grow does specify this.

The downside to this interpritation is that the model could have the effect dispelled or shrugged off. I'm now tempted to play a Perdita crew with a mature nephlim.

If the effect was on Hamelin, then his death would end it, so the model could carry on after his death. If it was on the model, then it is doomed by the death of Hamelin.

Although the FAQ says

Can you clarify what an effect is? An effect meets all of the following criteria:

•It is generated during an Encounter

•It sits 'on' a model

-Paralyzed sits on the model which is Paralyzed.

-Conduit sits on the Voodoo Doll.

-Nurse's Massive Dose sits on the target of the Spell.

•Has a defined end time

And I'm not sure the hiring is part of the encounter. Which makes me think it isn't an effect, so it doesn't transfer when the model is replaced. But I'm unsure enough to leave both arguements in the post

[Smoje_DK]

So, as I see it, 2 things are on 'trial' here:

1) Does Growing Influence extend an effect that 'sits' on a target (and thus can be removed e.g. by Sue's (0) Shrug Off)

2) Does Replace actually replace one model with another model, or does it count as being the same model eventhough the original model counts as being removed from play (RM p38)

I know effects carry over from one model to another when replaced, but I think this is a tad tricky :-\

Edited March 20, 2013 by Smoje_DK

[i_was_like_you]

Here's a hideous thought experiment: A Viks crew hires Vanessa and Hamelin. Vanessa brings in a Steampunk Arachnid Swarm, and Hamelin brings in a Steampunk Arachnid.

Couldn't Hamelin also bring a Swarm, as it's still ht 1?