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Arcanist Beatsticks


Adran

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Or How hitty is Snow storm?

Following on from a different discussion I decided I didn't want to derail that thread.

Really :)

I don't consider something a hitter if it starts its activation 4" away from a witchling, and can't be 80% sure to kill it in case of necessity. What is more important, you'll seldom have the opportunity to launch its full might in melee, because 1. flurry is gravely situational w/o any noteworthy movement tricks 2. you'll have more important things to do if you want to account for its 11SS cost.

I don't call it a slouch by any means, and accept if anyone try to capitalize on its melee abilities. But come on... Snowstorm can't be compared to the golem in this regard, and the 7SS+6SS definition is misleading. Why would it be 7ss worth of hitter in a faction that allows you to hire, say, LSA's for 5SS? On the other hand, Snowstorm still costs 11SS, so the aforementioned basis doesn't apply in a hitting-power-for-points-cost relation.

/me stops derailing thread

I think thats pretty unfair on Snowstorm. It it virtually garenteed to kill the Witchling stalker in that circumstance.

Whilst I agree Flurry is much inferier to Melee expert, Snowstorm does at least have tricks which increse its use. His ability to pull any model within 4" into base contact for 2 0 actions and the need for 1 card of 3 or higher means that his flurry will see more use than most.

(Plus its a hard counter to the Rail golem, and has a decent chance of beating it in a straight fight. Iniative is the deciding factor as the Rail golem with 0 burning counters a turn is a lot less scary)

Ignoring points cost at this point, if I was looking for a model to hit hard in melee in the Arcanist Faction I think my list is something like

1 Steamborg Executioner

2 Rail Golem

3 Slate ridge Mauler

4 Blessed of December

5 Snowstorm

6 Large Steampunk Arachnid

7 Arachnid swarm

8 mechanical rider

9 Joss

10 Kang

Please give your own opinions and lists.

Lots of these models have uses beyond just being a beatstick, and others see almost no table time. Some of these models are pretty slow, and the Soulstone miner maybe should be there. I don't know. Cost makes a big difference, the Large arachnid is much cheaper than everythign above him for example. I could probably justify a lot of my choices, and I'm pretty sure they are flavoured by things like my inability to get Kang to achieve anything.

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In all honesty mate I feel kang is a 10t only model. Sure he is dual faction and all that but toraswapping plus ignoring obscuring is what makes him effiecent at "getting their". I agree on 1 and 2, think mech rider should be 3, put swarm at 4, blessed 5,Rattler at 6 and soulstone miner at 7.

I don't think snowstorm is a "hitter" not saying he can't hit but he seems more support+ counter charge due to how slow his "normal crew" is. Joss is too slow to be worth anything imho epitome of book 1 model. LSA's I feel our secondary hitters not heavy the main problem they have is base combat 5. They cannot reliably hit def 6 and above also they don't have a hitter profile (3/4/6 damage track).

Just my 2 cents though sure many others will disagree or have their own things.

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@Adran: It's a matter of one's definition of hitters, after all is said and done. Your train of thought is pretty consistent, only it seems to differ from mine. The witchling example was partly wrong because I misremembered the RG of December's command, sorry for that.

I think hitters have to hit hard (obviously), and need to be reliable in sense of giving an effect to the whole thing. The latter is hard to specify, it ranges from the ability of getting in position to the ability of not having anything more important to do, but in my opinion Snowstorm fails on this one for various reasons. Not that it can't be more hitty than many other models, because it can be.

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In all honesty mate I feel kang is a 10t only model. Sure he is dual faction and all that but toraswapping plus ignoring obscuring is what makes him effiecent at "getting their".

I think you're right to an extent. With most Arcanist masters, Kang is slow and will be shot/avoided before he gets anywhere. When used with Mei however, he can easily be seismic punched into position, and with the emberling you can either punch him further forward, or hide him in vent steam (which he can then see through) as the situation dictates.

Other than this, I'd probably agree, though it very much depends on which master you take, as to whether some things are good beatsticks, or just expensive minions. For instance on paper, I'd say that Ama No Zako is going to be a great beatstick for Marcus (can't wait for Ama to be released!), but not terribly special for any other arcanists.

Generally I'd agree with the original post's list, though the blessed of december is very situational. It CAN hit hard, but the damage spread is slightly too low to be a true heavy hitter, and it tends to be a swiss army knife, rather than a hitter (it can do a lot of things which might well distract it from killing stuff).

I'd also add Mei into the hard melee hitter group.

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On your last sentence yes and no. To a degree any master with a damage ability can be do to use ss. However I believe with how most people play (delaying master's activation towards end of the turn) and the fact that masters that have a "movement ability" that can be used in conjunction with good def (def 7 and railwalk in this case) are better at grabbing vp. So she can suffer from a good at a bunch things role so she shouldn't be thought of as a one trick pony.

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Absolutely. She's definitely not a one trick pony. I use her much more for moving the rest of the crew around (seismic punch) and/or objective grabbing (rail walk + defensive stance + armour 2, and still an AP to go punch crazy or whatever if you want it). However if you can get the masks in hand, she can easily play the beatstick role. Obviously it's a different case to other beatsticks (which you can take with any master), I was just pointing out that if you take Mei, you don't necessarily need to worry about having a beatstick.

Back on topic, the general issue I find with beatsticks is that they're pretty sluggish (mech rider and the blessed are exceptions). What methods do folks use to speed them up with various masters/other minions?

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In all honesty mate I feel kang is a 10t only model.

Totally disagree. If you are only using him as a model that needs to "get there" then you are vastly under-utilizing him. He is great as an anchor.....a counter-charger....a second-line.....or a territory guard. There are plenty of times when the enemy is coming to you anyway. He also has some nice buffs for living models, so he fits in well with Marcus in the same roles I mentioned.

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I just find in my local meta that people don't really want to commit to where he is if he holes up. And if they do chances our it is a ss using model that assuming they have a full hand they normally don't have a problem dropping him.

Granted I don't own/play Marcus so I might not see this effect out of him. I just most often would rather use the rail golem instead of him in most arcanist list's I use.

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In all honesty mate I feel kang is a 10t only model. Sure he is dual faction and all that but toraswapping plus ignoring obscuring is what makes him effiecent at "getting their".

Although he is wonderful as a 10T model, with so many more models to generate obscuring for him to ignore, he still packs a decent punch as an Arcanist.

Not to put all your hitters in the same basket, but walking him upfield with a Steamborg and its steam / fog could keep him safe. Kaeris' flame walls are also obscuring, aren't they? I'm sure there are other obscuring effects from Arcanists / Mercs that could help. Maybe using Lure to bring the fight to him would also help.

Despite how poorly he may have performed for others, he seems to be consistently good for me when he's on the table. As a potential beatstick, he does already have a bullseye painted on his forehead (or hat), so treating him like a master or henchman, as far as postponing his activation until later in the turn, is probably a (situational) must. Waiting until later turns to get him into the fray, when his healing will make a significant difference, is probably also a good call.

Oh, and let's not forget pairing him up with Johan for some amazing cb buffs.

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Yeah I usually get the most out of him when I don't commit him to the fight in the early turns. He normally is a turn 3 or later hitter for me when I use him. Don't own steamborg but I can see how he is good its just nowadays outside of book 2 or 4 crews I have never really fancied the box sets much (though I have heard he can be a pain to assemble I might wait to pick him up till he gets redone in plastic).

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Yeah I usually get the most out of him when I don't commit him to the fight in the early turns. He normally is a turn 3 or later hitter for me when I use him. Don't own steamborg but I can see how he is good its just nowadays outside of book 2 or 4 crews I have never really fancied the box sets much (though I have heard he can be a pain to assemble I might wait to pick him up till he gets redone in plastic).

Not nearly as much of a pain as the LSAs, though. But I've found that for arachnids, using styrofoam to pin the legs in place, attaching one or two at a time works well. I hear Peacekeeper's the even bigger pain, as those arms are just too heavy for it.

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To me a good beat stick something you would not replace with2 cheaper models. Which is why I would drop the steamborg executioner from the list. Any list that would take him are better with 2 LSA.

As for Kang, I find he is always replaceable with something else to get better synergy. In larger games I see home being used because he would be needed in synergies. With Me Feng or Ramos you would rather have constructs which is why I usually go for either LSA or mechanical rider. Raspy doesn't really need a good beat stick because she does it on her own. I may use him with Colette, but that's if I don't feel like playing the duet. Marcus would only take non-beasts in larger games. The last model to take him woould be kaeris, who is the only master to really benifit from him.

kang in TT and Torokage is fun, which is why i agree with the idea that he is a TT model more than a Arcanist.

All that being said i would look at the following for beatsticks

In ramos or mei feng

Mechanical rider

Rail golem

2x LSA

Colette

Duet

Johan (flurry is good here due to disappearing act, let drop him in melee with target.)

Kang (below johan because of costs, butstill needs disppearing act to get thwr quickly, and keep up with crew)

Raspi

Special

Marcus

Slate ridge

I don't play him so not 100 sure of best models

Kaeris

Kang

LSA

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I value the steamborg executioner for the following two reasons paired combat 7 + decap trigger in addition to huge damage range 4/5/6.

One of the biggest issues arcanists have is consistantly hitting high def. Paired combat seven is only on two models (him and cory duet), also Ramos can hit stuff with cast 8 on electrical fire but the damage track ain't too hot on that.

Granted the steamborg suffers from lack of a obey user inheirant to faction but aRamos has it in theory with the (2) spell. Plus the metal gamin attached to a steamborg greatly increases his durability in making it to the fight he is needed for know and has the same walk so he can be kept up with.

Also the toss aside trigger gives him potential 16-20" threat range with 8" charge + 2" melee threat range into a toss aside free charge but he can generally at the least get around 16" from one charge with a severe cheated in on "real charge" (toss aside trigger). 6 damage + 4 follow up on melee expert means very little other than masters/henchmen or ultra tank models live to see the next day after two swings from him. Also if you win initiative following turn you have 3 (4 with flurry he does have it) follow up paired 7 swings min damage 4.

edit: looked up card to put down guarenteed threat range.

Edited by Odin1981
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What about Alyce fo Ramos?

[Woulda been nice if Mei were also a scavenger, since she supposedly makes golems and gamin in her spare time.]

I really can't justify the +2SS cost for her elite Merc status. While the extra cards are nice, I found she is not worth keeping that many points so close to you caster all the time, you need to spread out a bit more. Having 2 models with high damage range so close together is easy to avoid LOS. I found that after turn 2 her job because to defend the deployment zone or objectives. The reactivate would be nice if arcanist had some sort of Shrugg off ability on a construct.

I MIGHT try her with normal Merc costs but the +2 just puts in the league of Bishop. Nice idea, but always seems to be dropped for something cheaper.

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Reactivate Ramos, use the second activation to avatar, and it shrugs it off for him. Hire the Arcane Effigy for even more cards, since getting the 2nd tomes will be harder without the Mobile Toolkit.

The nurse is worth the 4 points for 1 turn less manifesting, but personally don't think Alice is worth 10 SS. Also Alice needs a tome to give reactivate, if you eliminate the mobile tool kit you need 3 tomes before you can manifest.

The nurse with sue or mctavish is worth it. I find when playing either aMcM or aSeamus I take a nurse and a shrugging merc because this way the nurses points end up boosting multiple models. 4 reactivates are well worth 4 SS if you don't have to sacrifice anything. In arcanist you need to pay 10 SS for a single reactivate which you don't pay an additional costs. In theory reactivating an LSA for the extra activation and then having it die easily for 3 scraps MIGHT be worth it, but I still think 10 SS is a litlle high.

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I found a great use for the Knock Aside trigger on the Steamborg last night.

I quite happily dismantled most of the Hoffman ball by sending the parts of it flying about the board. I couldn't finish it off as the torrential rain that happened next turn stopped me from charging so I just had to rely on actual damage. Shame. Hoffman not near constructs is a very easy model to take down.

I'm still not sure I really got my worth from the steamborg, but it did pretty well, and when under an arcing screen it was so feared that my opponent would rather shoot into combat that hit it in melee. Ryle did a good job of killing the Pale rider and hurting Hoffman for me.

I understand Cannonfodders view that he would rather 2 LSA than a steamborg, and I think a lot of the time he is right in list selection, but in rating the Factions beatsticks I wanted to look at just that 1 role and I'm not sure that if you want a model dead, there is a better minion in the game (assuming you can get the steamborg there).

I think I overrated the Blessed, but it is the only model there that can trigger extra attacks, but its damage profile and extra attacks trigger is too reliant on Living un-armoured models. I'd drop it down to 7 or 8 probably, and I underrated the Mech rider in its actual hittign ability

PS thanks for the discussion, I've found it really useful to read, and am glad to see I'm not the only one who has problems using Kang

Edited by Adran
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I personally really like the spider swarms, though most opponents only underestimate it once.

:+fate on damage while it has 5+ wounds left, the ability to heal with a (0) in order to get up to those 5+ wounds, short enough to get cover from most stuff, (+2) Melee Master plus above all a paralyze trigger on a :crows

Edit: :crows, not :masks

Edited by Seregon
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its actually paralyse on a :crows.

They are good. I'm never quite sure on what I think about models that have equal damage on weak and medium. I know I'm much more likely to get weak damage anyway, but those few times I get medium I feel almost cheated.

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its actually paralyse on a :crows.

They are good. I'm never quite sure on what I think about models that have equal damage on weak and medium. I know I'm much more likely to get weak damage anyway, but those few times I get medium I feel almost cheated.

Ah, yes. Emote mishap. It's true that it can be somewhat of a let down to flip the moderates, but on the other hand there's no need to cheat in anything other than a severe (or just hit again).

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