doppelganger Voodoo Doll

[Addman]

i was hoping to get a rule confirmation on a discussion on this post

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?39475-doppelganger-and-Voodoo-doll-question&p=511831#post511831

Zoraida Creates a Voodoo Doll on a model.

then Doppelganger copy's Reconnect a spell from the voodoo Doll on another model.

Reconnect says: "Target model is now affected by Conduit." since the voodoo Doll didn't cast Reconnect, is the first model is still connect to the Voodoo Doll along with the second?

and

Is the Target model now permanently affected by Conduit until the "voodoo Doll" casts Reconnect or removed from play?

Edited March 3, 2013 by Addman

[Ausplosions]

Which discussion?

There are a number in that thread.

What do you want confirmed?

[Addman]

Zoraida Creates a Voodoo Doll on a model.

then Doppelganger copy's Reconnect a spell from the voodoo Doll on another model.

Reconnect says: "Target model is now affected by Conduit." since the voodoo Doll didn't cast Reconnect, is the first model is still connect to the Voodoo Doll along with the second?

and

Is the Target model now permanently affected by Conduit until the "voodoo Doll" casts Reconnect or removed from play?

Edited March 3, 2013 by Addman

[Kadeton]

When you copy things, the things they mention don't necessarily come along - this comes up with Molly trying to copy Bette Noir's One With The Night but not being able to return to play.

If you copy Reconnect and try to cast it, it looks for Conduit on the Doppelganger, doesn't find it, and the spell fizzles.

You could also copy Conduit, and it would do nothing by itself because it requires the Doppelganger to be summoned in order to take effect.

If you copied both Conduit and Reconnect, you could then cast Reconnect on a target to have it be affected by the Doppelganger's Conduit (with the benefits to Zoraida's casting and the Poison that entails). As a bonus, the Conduit would last until the Doppelganger or the target was removed.

[EnternalVoid]

I am pretty sure the Doppelganger can't mimic Conduit as it references Zoraida by name, as one of the stipulation of Mimic is that the effect can't reference a Model by name.

Mimic: Target a model within 8” and LoS and chooses 1

effect. This lasts until the End Closing Phase. Effects that

reference a model by name cannot be Mimicked.

I think that was why people were trying to Mimic Reconnect, as the spell did not reference any model by name, as they could not mimic Conduit.

[Kadeton]

There you go, then. Can't be done.

(Thanks - I always forget that stupid rule, as in my mind it refers to things that reference "this model" by name, not any model. Sigh.)

[Addman]

When you copy things, the things they mention don't necessarily come along - this comes up with Molly trying to copy Bette Noir's One With The Night but not being able to return to play.

If you copy Reconnect and try to cast it, it looks for Conduit on the Doppelganger, doesn't find it, and the spell fizzles.

You could also copy Conduit, and it would do nothing by itself because it requires the Doppelganger to be summoned in order to take effect.

If you copied both Conduit and Reconnect, you could then cast Reconnect on a target to have it be affected by the Doppelganger's Conduit (with the benefits to Zoraida's casting and the Poison that entails). As a bonus, the Conduit would last until the Doppelganger or the target was removed.

but Reconnect's not trying to looks for Conduit on the Doppelganger, it just say its now "affected" by Conduit. unlike Molly and One With The Night which says "...it (the model casting One With The Night) may "use" Drawn to death to return to play" Reconnect never looks on the Doppelganger for Conduit it just make the new target also "affected" by Conduit.

Edited March 4, 2013 by Addman

[Kadeton]

If your Zoraida was facing another Zoraida, and your Wicked Doll cast Reconnect, could you claim that it's the opponent's Wicked Doll's Conduit that gets changed? That's a Conduit that's in play, after all. Total nonsense. Abilities without a specific reference otherwise are assumed to be on the model's card.

[The Godlyness]

well on the wicked doll not the voodoo doll could you use hags toys to appear next to an enemy zorida lol?

[Addman]

If your Zoraida was facing another Zoraida, and your Wicked Doll cast Reconnect, could you claim that it's the opponent's Wicked Doll's Conduit that gets changed? That's a Conduit that's in play, after all. Total nonsense. Abilities without a specific reference otherwise are assumed to be on the model's card.

what? i'm assuming you mean "a voodoo doll" and, that wouldn't simply work because Conduit says: "this remains in effect on this model until it is removed from play or it cast Reconnect." your opponent's voodoo Doll never used Reconnect so it cant change. you just lose Conduit

Edited March 4, 2013 by Addman

[sharpobjects]

well on the wicked doll not the voodoo doll could you use hags toys to appear next to an enemy zorida lol?

Hag's toys says Friendly Zoraida or Friendly model with the puppet master ability. So no, you could not use it to appear next to an enemy Zoraida.

[Space Donkey]

If you copy Reconnect and try to cast it, it looks for Conduit on the Doppelganger, doesn't find it, and the spell fizzles.

What made you come to this conclussion? The Molly threads showed that a model doesn't gain an effect implicitly when said effect is in the text of a copied spell, whereas Reconnect explicitly states the target model gains Conduit.

[The Godlyness]

my card says sadly says

place this model withing 2" of Zorida OR a Friendly model with puppet master.

says nothing about a friendly zorida

[Addman]

my card says sadly says

place this model withing 2" of Zorida OR a Friendly model with puppet master.

says nothing about a friendly zorida

what version of card do you have?

i just looked at my card and it says friendly zoraida

---------- Post added at 02:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:13 AM ----------

The ability Conduit on the Voodoo Doll says the following:

"Nominate a non-Master enemy model in Zoraida’s LoS when this model is summoned. As long as this model is within 1” of Zoraida, she ignores LoS and range when targeting the nominated model with a spell. Her Casting and spell Damage Flips receive + when targeting the nominated model. The nominated model suffers Poison 2 at the end of the Closing Phase. This remains in effect on this model until it is removed from play or it casts Reconnect."

The ability Reconnect on the Voodoo Doll says the following:

"Target model is now affected by Conduit."

Conduit, is a talent possessed by the Voodoo Doll. All that Reconnect does is make a Target model become effected by the talent Conduit, which is possessed by the Voodoo Doll.

Normally, when a Voodoo Doll is summoned into play, you nominate a non-Master model in Zoraida's LoS, and that model becomes affected by the talent Conduit. The model affected by Conduit is normally selected when the Voodoo Doll is summoned into play, what the spell Reconnect does is bypass the targeting selection specified in Conduit (when the Voodoo Doll is summoned into play) and allows a new Target model to be affected by Conduit directly without going through Conduit's normal target selection process.

This would mean that when you cast Reconnect another Target model is affected by Conduit. However, the talent Conduit has a line that specifies when the effect Conduit expires on any given model affected by it; when a model is removed from play, or it (the Voodoo Doll) casts Reconnect. If the model or Voodoo doll never does any of these, the effects never expire.

Note that it does not say if any model casts reconnect, but specifically it. And since this ability is possessed only by the Voodoo Doll, the "it" is the Voodoo Doll.

In essence the talent Conduit doesn't put any effects on any models, only targets these models. And the talent stops targeting those models when certain criteria are met. The Doppleganger's Mimic allows you to add models to be targeted by Conduit while simultaneously bypassing the criteria that determines when a model is no longer targeted.

A great explanation by marful of the general idea

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?39475-doppelganger-and-Voodoo-doll-question/page2

[Kadeton]

What made you come to this conclussion? The Molly threads showed that a model doesn't gain an effect implicitly when said effect is in the text of a copied spell, whereas Reconnect explicitly states the target model gains Conduit.

Conduit is not an effect placed on the target, ever - it's an effect on the Voodoo Doll. As Addman helpfully pointed out, the nominated model for Conduit cannot be changed unless the Voodoo Doll itself casts Reconnect, because the text for Conduit reads: "this remains in effect on this model until it is removed from play or it cast Reconnect."

[Adran]

Readign through Marfuls explaination is very eyeopening and thougth provoking. As people said, the Conduit ability is still on the Voodoo doll. And when the doppleganger casts reconnect, it shouldn't trigger the end of the voodoo dolls conduit. And pointing out that the conduit is on the voodoo doll not the doppleganger made me realise.

The voodoo doll can only be under the effect of 1 conduit at a time.

Conduit doesn't change the rules that a model can only be under 1 effect of the same name at a time. So, the original conduit remains in play until the voodoo doll is removed from play or it casts Reconnect. And so any further attempts to put a conduit effect on the Voodoo doll will fail as it already has a conduit effect on it

In essence the talent Conduit doesn't put any effects on any models, only targets these models. And the talent stops targeting those models when certain criteria are met. The Doppleganger's Mimic allows you to add models to be targeted by Conduit while simultaneously bypassing the criteria that determines when a model is no longer targeted.

[\quote]

This is wrong, conduit says "This remains in effect on this model until it is removed from play or it casts Reconnect". It is putting an effect on a model. It says so right there on the last line of conduit.

The effect is on the voodoo doll. The only way I can see that the doppleganger can cast reconnect is if the Voodoo doll is currently not effected by it. This can only happen if someone casts dispell magic or something similar on the voodoo doll to get rid off the effect.

[Addman]

Conduit is not an effect placed on the target, ever -."

that not true, shrug off use by the ortega's can remove Conduit from them self.

[EnternalVoid]

that not true, shrug off use by the ortega's can remove Conduit from them self.

Actually no, If the Voodoo connects with a model with Shrug Off, they can't remove it with that spell.

The effect sits on the Voodoo Doll, not on, in your case, the Ortega. The part in the Voodoo Doll's rules that says " This remains in effect on this model until it is removedfrom play or it casts Reconnect" means that the effect of Conduit is sitting on the Voodoo Doll. While the Ortega is the nominated Model, it does not have an effect actually sitting on it, just the Voodoo doll that has an effect sitting on it that can effects the nominated Model. It is why the Voodoo Doll's rules always refer to them as the nominated model, and says at the end that the effect is on "this model".

[Addman]

Actually no, If the Voodoo connects with a model with Shrug Off, they can't remove it with that spell. The effect sits on the Voodoo Doll, not on, in your case, the Ortega. The part in the Voodoo Doll's rules that says " This remains in effect on this model until it is removedfrom play or it casts Reconnect" means that the effect of Conduit is sitting on the Voodoo Doll. While the Ortega is the nominated Model, it does not have an effect actually sitting on it, just the Voodoo doll that has an effect sitting on it that can effects the nominated Model. It is why the Voodoo Doll's rules always refer to them as the nominated model, and says at the end that the effect is on "this model".

if thats ture my local henchmen been ruling that wrong

[EnternalVoid]

I will have to say that I do believe your Henchmen is wrong, Go to this link and look down abou 2/5th of the way down to a question that says "Can you Clarify what an effect is?". In its example it even says Conduit sits on the Voodoo Doll.

http://www.malifaux.com/FAQ.php

An effect, it will often be capitalized, is effectively a Noun in the game that has a specific decription that defines what it is.

Let me break down the Voodoo Doll's ability better for you. If you refer to page 19 there is a section that says Games Effects *this is the small rule book for page number*. It is here where you find the what an "Effect" is. "Anything that changes a Model's State."

Conduit is an Effect that sits on the Voodoo Doll, but it is an Effect that has certain propers that go into affect when certain criteria are met. Much like the example in the book with Lure near the end of the page there are different types of effects. When the Voodoo Doll meets the criteria and it is Zoraida's turn she gains an Effect at that time that lets her ignore LOS and range for her spells. It also gives her the positives to casting and damage. These are effects that are only triggered when Criteria are met, which are having a nominated model with conduit and 1" from Zoraida. They only last as long as the moment.

Use for example Shrug Off, can you Shrugg Off a lure spell's effects? No. Why? Because they have already transpired by the time your model can activate and use Shrug Off. Technically you could Shrug Off the effect of Lure if you could somehow interrupt the spell but models lack the ability to interrupt the timing at this point.

Now all in all to be fair to your Henchmen they are human and capable of mistakes. Everyone is. Conduit is one of the easiest ones to miss in this case as normally when you Nominate a model with an ability like that, you do it to put an effect on them, not to activate one on yourself and those that do put it on yourself are normally some sort of buff, not an oddity like Conduit.

[Adran]

if thats ture my local henchmen been ruling that wrong

Its an easy one to get wrong as it does create an effect that is harmful to the Ortega, but the effect is not on the Ortega it is on the voodoo doll (as explicitly stated on conduit). The Ortegas can shrug off the poison, btu its of little use as if the coduit effect is still in effect then at the closing phase the poison will be reset to 2 anyway.

Spell breaker and similar effects can remove to conduit effect from the voodoo doll, or remove the poison tokens from the nominated model before it activates (but the conduit will re-apply them in the closing phase).