doppelganger and Voodoo doll question?

[Addman]

1) Doppelganger copy's Reconnect spell from the voodoo Doll.

2) Doppelganger casts Reconnect.

Reconnect says: Target model is now affected by Conduit. Do I need to have the Doppelganger, have the Ability Conduit for the Voodoo doll or would the Target model be affected by Conduit because the Voodoo doll has it?

Question 2:

The Doppelganger's Ability, Mimic says: "This lasts until the End Closing Phase"

The Voodoo doll's Ability Conduit says: "The nominated model suffers Poison 2 at the end of the Closing Phase"

Would the target model suffers Poison 2?

[Space Donkey]

This was brought up in the Doppelganger thread, but all you need to do is copy Reconnect and cast it. Since Conduit specifies how long it lasts, the model you target with Reconnect will remain affected until you cast it again. That also means that it will keep getting Poison 2 every End Closing Phase. It is dirty, but totally legit.

[Ozz]

And it allows you to use mimic twice every turn afterwards on something else:P

[micahwc]

If you conduit to the same model the voodoo doll is connected to, does the model suffer poison 2 twice? Does poison 2 from 2 different sources = 4 points of damage or 2?

[Boshea]

Poison doesn't stack. When hit with poison you increase your poison tokens to the number on the poison ability. So two instances of Poison 2 results in only two poison tokens.

[Addman]

This was brought up in the Doppelganger thread, but all you need to do is copy Reconnect and cast it. Since Conduit specifies how long it lasts, the model you target with Reconnect will remain affected until you cast it again. That also means that it will keep getting Poison 2 every End Closing Phase. It is dirty, but totally legit.

but wouldn't the Doppelganger have to copy Conduit as well?

[Kalkris]

So, another query, as I am interested. If the Doppelganger casts Reconnect on a model unaffected by the Voodoo Doll's Reconnect, are there now two models which are affected by Conduit?

~Lil Kalki

[Addman]

So, another query, as I am interested. If the Doppelganger casts Reconnect on a model unaffected by the Voodoo Doll's Reconnect, are there now two models which are affected by Conduit?

~Lil Kalki

if you mean the Doppelganger casting Reconnect on one model and then trying to cast it on another model. I think it would lose the first model the Doppelganger cast Reconnect on because Conduit says that it "this remains in effect on this model until it is removed from play or it cast Reconnect."

[marful]

but wouldn't the Doppelganger have to copy Conduit as well?

No, Reconnect is a spell that causes a target to be affected by "Conduit".

The effect "Conduit" has a defined duration specified by the effect itself as printed on the Voodoo Doll card (until the Voodoo Doll is removed from play or casts Reconnect.)

[The Godlyness]

Doppelganger

Mimic: Target a model within 8” and LoS and chooses 1

effect. This lasts until the End Closing Phase. Effects that

reference a model by name cannot be Mimicked.

voodoo doll's conduit:

Nominate a non-Master enemy model in

Zoraida’s LoS when this model is summoned. As long as

this model is within 1” of Zoraida, she ignores LoS and

range when targeting the nominated model with a

spell. Her Casting and spell Damage Flips receive +

when targeting the nominated model. The nominated

model suffers Poison 2 at the end of the Closing Phase.

This remains in effect on this model until it is removed

from play or it casts Reconnect.

references a model by name. cant be mimicked. might not be the model it copying but the effect clearly says Zoriada.

But you can Copy Reconnect. that is fine ofc

Edited March 1, 2013 by The Godlyness

[Kalkris]

No, I am asking if the Doll's own Conduit ends once the Doppelganger casts Reconnect. Can there only be one Conduit active at a time, in other words?

Also, slight aside but, Zoraida says under "Create Voodoo Doll" that you get rid of all other Voodoo Doll Totems attached to her after you make a new one. If Zoraida has taken something like Primordial Magic, can she make a Voodoo Doll and then have 2 totems?

~Lil Kalki

[sharpobjects]

Also, slight aside but, Zoraida says under "Create Voodoo Doll" that you get rid of all other Voodoo Doll Totems attached to her after you make a new one. If Zoraida has taken something like Primordial Magic, can she make a Voodoo Doll and then have 2 totems?

Masters/Henchmen can only have one connected totem. If you hired the Primordial Magic and attached it to Zoraida you would lose the Primordial once you summoned in the Voodoo Doll. One work around is to also hire Collodi and attach the primordial to him.

There are exceptions to the one totem per Master such has Giant Mosquitos having an ability called Numerous which allows Som'er Teeth Jones to connect up to 4 totems instead of 1.

Unless there is a printed ability like Numerous on a models card, its just 1 per Master/Henchmen.

[marful]

No, I am asking if the Doll's own Conduit ends once the Doppelganger casts Reconnect. Can there only be one Conduit active at a time, in other words?

Also, slight aside but, Zoraida says under "Create Voodoo Doll" that you get rid of all other Voodoo Doll Totems attached to her after you make a new one. If Zoraida has taken something like Primordial Magic, can she make a Voodoo Doll and then have 2 totems?

~Lil Kalki

The ability Conduit on the Voodoo Doll says the following:

Nominate a non-Master enemy model in Zoraida’s LoS when this model is summoned. As long as this model is within 1” of Zoraida, she ignores LoS and range when targeting the nominated model with a spell. Her Casting and spell Damage Flips receive + when targeting the nominated model. The nominated model suffers Poison 2 at the end of the Closing Phase. This remains in effect on this model until it is removed from play or it casts Reconnect.

The ability Reconnect on the Voodoo Doll says the following:

Target model is now affected by Conduit.

Conduit, is a talent possessed by the Voodoo Doll. All that Reconnect does is make a Target model become effected by the talent Conduit, which is possessed by the Voodoo Doll.

Normally, when a Voodoo Doll is summoned into play, you nominate a non-Master model in Zoraida's LoS, and that model becomes affected by the talent Conduit. The model affected by Conduit is normally selected when the Voodoo Doll is summoned into play, what the spell Reconnect does is bypass the targeting selection specified in Conduit (when the Voodoo Doll is summoned into play) and allows a new Target model to be affected by Conduit directly without going through Conduit's normal target selection process.

This would mean that when you cast Reconnect another Target model is affected by Conduit. However, the talent Conduit has a line that specifies when the effect Conduit expires on any given model affected by it; when a model is removed from play, or it (the Voodoo Doll) casts Reconnect. If the model or Voodoo doll never does any of these, the effects never expire.

Note that it does not say if any model casts reconnect, but specifically it. And since this ability is possessed only by the Voodoo Doll, the "it" is the Voodoo Doll.

In essence the talent Conduit doesn't put any effects on any models, only targets these models. And the talent stops targeting those models when certain criteria are met. The Doppleganger's Mimic allows you to add models to be targeted by Conduit while simultaneously bypassing the criteria that determines when a model is no longer targeted.

Edited March 5, 2013 by marful

[Kalkris]

So, in essence, if my Voodoo Doll has something affected by Conduit, and my Doppelganger Mimics and then casts Reconnect, targeting a model other than the Voodoo Doll's Conduit, I can have two enemy models affected by Conduit, and at the very least will suffer Poison 2 at the end of each Closing Phase?

~Lil Kalki

[Space Donkey]

You can take it further than that and Mimic Reconnect from the doll and Casting Expert from Zoraida add Reconnect to 3 models per turn. You just have to make sure Z can see whatever you want to Reconnect and you can spread the poison around.

[Addman]

The ability Conduit on the Voodoo Doll says the following:

The ability Reconnect on the Voodoo Doll says the following:

Conduit, is a talent possessed by the Voodoo Doll. All that Reconnect does is make a Target model become effected by the talent Conduit, which is possessed by the Voodoo Doll.

Normally, when a Voodoo Doll is summoned into play, you nominate a non-Master model in Zoraida's LoS, and that model becomes affected by the talent Conduit. The model affected by Conduit is normally selected when the Voodoo Doll is summoned into play, what the spell Reconnect does is bypass the targeting selection specified in Conduit (when the Voodoo Doll is summoned into play) and allows a new Target model to be affected by Conduit directly without going through Conduit's normal target selection process.

This would mean that when you cast Reconnect another Target model is affected by Conduit. However, the talent Conduit has a line that specifies when the effect Conduit expires on any given model affected by it; when a model is removed from play, or it (the Voodoo Doll) casts Reconnect. If the model or Voodoo doll never does any of these, the effects never expire.

Note that it does not say if any model casts reconnect, but specifically it. And since this ability is possessed only by the Voodoo Doll, the "it" is the Voodoo Doll.

In essence the talent Conduit doesn't put any effects on any models, only targets these models. And the talent stops targeting those models when certain criteria are met. The Doppleganger's Mimic allows you to add models to be targeted by Conduit while simultaneously bypassing the criteria that determines when a model is no longer targeted.

by this explanation (which is a great one by the way... good show) you could target master with it. because it bypass the summoned part which says "Nominate a non-Master enemy model in Zoraida’s LoS when this model is summoned" vary interesting....

Edited March 5, 2013 by Addman

[Joel]

You can take it further than that and Mimic Reconnect from the doll and Casting Expert from Zoraida add Reconnect to 3 models per turn. You just have to make sure Z can see whatever you want to Reconnect and you can spread the poison around.

pretty sure you can't, conduit lasts until the model casts reconnect - so if the doppleganger casts it more than once, the conduit target simply changes.

[Addman]

pretty sure you can't, conduit lasts until the model casts reconnect - so if the doppleganger casts it more than once, the conduit target simply changes.

no conduit says: when a model is removed from play, or it (the Voodoo Doll) casts Reconnect. if it (the Voodoo Doll) never casts Reconnect it wouldn't

[Joel]

If doppleganger is casting reconnect - isnt it the "it" in that sentence?

[Boshea]

If doppleganger is casting reconnect - isnt it the "it" in that sentence?

Yes it is. Conduit lasts until the model is removed from play or casts Reconnect. If you want to make the argument that "it" can only ever be the voodoo doll, then I'll argue that you can't mimic reconnect since it references an ability that refers to models by name.

[Space Donkey]

I don't see how you could argue that Reconnect refers to a model by name, it is a very brief spell that places another model under the effect of an ability that references a model by name. Reconnect itself makes no mention of a specific model whatsoever. Conduit however does. Marful's description is about as good as the interaction could be described. Pull out both of the cards and look at them as you read Marful's post, it's spot on. It's also nasty as hell, but far from the most broken combo you can do with her.

[Adran]

Ok, so the arguement is that the Doppleganger cast re-connect, which targets an enemy model. That model is now affected by conduit.

What you are argueing is that the Conduit effect that affects it is on the Voodoo doll. I think I can understand that logic. Lets follow it through.

Now, the rules state that a model can not be affected by more than 1 instance of the same effect unless that effect says it can. There is nothing in the description of Conduit that allows the voodoo doll to be affected by a second Conduit effect, as such whilst the first conduit is still on it, then any attempt to put a second instance of conduit on it will fail. As such, the doppleganger can only cast the re-connect spell if the Voodoo doll doesn't already have a nominated model.

So there is no point in the doppleganger casting it multiple times, not because each cast will end it (as that is not the end condition) but becasue the voodoo doll can not have a second effect of the same name upon it.

[marful]

If doppleganger is casting reconnect - isnt it the "it" in that sentence?

The "It" is in the ability Conduit. The Doppleganger never casts Conduit, nor does it have the talent Conduit. Ergo it can't ever be "it" for a talent it never casts nor has.

Edited March 5, 2013 by marful

[Sybaris]

that's some seriously devious way to use the doppleganger...furthering her uses with Zoraida (combined with the Wp 10 gamble your life combo)

[EnternalVoid]

Alright I was avoiding this debate but I think throwing in a few tidbits might be a good idea at this point before too many people get ideas. This is not a new thing, or more a new debate. Part of this goes back to me a long time ago saying that I was not a fan of the spell Reconnect wording. Or well Conduit as well but making that one better worded is rough. I said long ago that people will get the wrong idea from this and it could be worded better to avoid confusion. I will start off with saying that I Adran is right. Now into the reasoning behind this. First, the link to the FAQ page as it is important for this.

http://www.malifaux.com/FAQ.php

First off, we know Conduit is an Ability and that Abilities are part of Talents. Due to the FAQ on the site we know a few things from this. First that Conduit as an Ability and thus is not an effect. But we do know that Abilities printed on the card can cause effects. We know that Conduit produces an Effect as if you look at the question right above the one I am referring to you see it using Conduit sitting on the Voodoo Doll as an example of an Effect.

At this point we know for a fact that Conduit produces an effect and that the effect does indeed sit on the Voodoo Doll. This is important as Adran brought up the whole, Effects not stacking issue *Page 20 in the small rule book*.

Marful was right; the Doppelganger can indeed mimic Reconnect and when it casts this spell it is not breaking any rule. What was wrong with Marful’s argument was “In essence the talent Conduit doesn't put any effects on any models, only targets these models”. We know from the FAQ that there is an effect and it is put on the Voodoo Doll. Otherwise Marful’s argument was completely on the ball and correct with its break down. It was a VERY good post. It is just important to look at the FAQ to see how that Adran’s post is correct for confirmation.

Conduit the Ability affective produces Conduit the Effect, and the Voodoo Doll cannot have this effect stacked on it multiple times. If we look at the Stacking Examples on Page 20 we can look at the example of the Sorrow and we can see this. It stays that the Sorrow’s Ability, Emotional Stress, has an ongoing effect. And that this ongoing effect is on the Sorrow, not the model being affected by Sorrow’s Ability. This is why they had to reword the Alps to prevent the multiple tests. It does not matter how many times the Doppelganger casts Reconnect because Conduit is an ongoing effect on the Voodoo Doll that will not stack. So you will not have multiple nominated models for Zoraida to target with her spells through Conduit.

What this does give you though, is when you have lost your connection with Conduit, a way to get a new target by mimicking Reconnect, and have the Doppelganger find you a new target for Zoraida without making the Voodoo Doll have to walk over there to do it and thus be out of range to Zoraida to use the ability. This helps when they are hiding from Zoraida or you need those 2 AP a new Voodoo Doll would cost.

Edited March 6, 2013 by EnternalVoid