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Understanding Dark Debts Crew Selection?


D-A-C

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Is anyone else a fan of the Arcane Effigy with Lynch, for Arcane Resevoir & the +1 Casting AP?

I have had some success with the Arcane Effigy when starting with the Hungering Darkness off the table. I have found that the extra card and three Dead Man's Hands in a turn greatly increase my odds for both a strait and getting a pair. One of the key considerations when exposing Jakob for a turn of Dead Man's Hand is whether I have an eight in my hand because there is no way to get an eight with Dead Man's Hand, and having an eight increases the flexibility of which straits I can get. An additional benefit for the Arcane Effigy is the ability to attack the casting stat, which can be very nice for damaging Von Schill, for example.

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I'm thinking of taking Lynch in a 25ss campaign.

Lynch+ Huggy+3ss

2 Beckoners

Brutal Effigy

Terror tot

Graves Or Tannen Or Tuco Or Convict Gunslinger.

I've never used Tuco before or the Brutal Effigy. Graves has been useful for movement, but always gets killed before killing much. Tannen has been fantastic, but always gets killed, turn ends and opponent gets a new hand. I could see Convict's spell being really useful, again, not hard to kill.

The problem is that in a campaign, getting Tannen or Graves killed could put me at a major disadvantage in the following games. The Brutal Effigy should help. I'm not even thinking about getting Lynch + Huggy permanently killed.

What advice do you have?

Edited by iamthefly
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for those who don't like collodi, or find him innapropriate for a particular startegy, you could try:

Lynch

Huggy (on table)

2 beckoners

brutal effigy

sue

stitched together

desperate merc

I'm also considering how doppleganger could be added to the crew - it seesm there might be some tricks worth the 8ss investment...

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My plan, for now, is to stick with the honeypot crew, and pick up Collodi's box as a henchman.

Not totally thematiclly compatible, by why not have a creepy puppeteer as the occasional guest entertainer.

Plus 2ss marionettes might be good fodder.

Indeed as an entertainer. Fluffwise it works magic: Collodi would get a peaceful and wellknown place to perform, Lynch would get more attractions for his place (and even though they are "dollshows", magic dolls are still a wonder to see, I think, and gives the girls a break to mingle with the clients for whatever needs :) ) and gamewise I think it will work. I'm getting my Lynch crew soon and the next thing to get will probably be the Collodi box. Alternative targets are always fun. :P

Kade, candy and iggy are all in lynch's "use even if TT" list and I can't see them thematically in unless this brothel/casino is catering for very, very unsavoury tastes!

When put like that, yeah. :D But consider doing like xKoBiEx did (p.3 on the thread) and take a Weaver Widow. A gambling mother that want to keep an eye out (pun for Koppelius, also a good choice for a father to this group :D) for the kids.

for those who don't like collodi, or find him innapropriate for a particular startegy, you could try:

Lynch

Huggy (on table)

2 beckoners

brutal effigy

sue

stitched together

desperate merc

I'm also considering how doppleganger could be added to the crew - it seesm there might be some tricks worth the 8ss investment...

Why the Desperate Merc? Brilliance+"For the Family" = Huggy out?

And I've thought about using Sue as an extra ranged attack and card machine... Any luck with him

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Kade, candy and iggy are all in lynch's "use even if TT" list and I can't see them thematically in unless this brothel/casino is catering for very, very unsavoury tastes!

I think they are probably there working with Tannen to keep an eye on their "investment" rather than anything else. Who knew how many "woes" brilliance causes.

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Why the Desperate Merc? Brilliance+"For the Family" = Huggy out?

And I've thought about using Sue as an extra ranged attack and card machine... Any luck with him

It's more that:

Brilliance + Feast or Famine = (Frantic + For my Family) x Serve Me = 4 A.P +3 Cb, :+fate attack flips + :+fate:+fate Dg = lots and lots of damage

QED :)

Sue can also shrug off Serve Me, giving him a free reactivate

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Indeed as an entertainer. Fluffwise it works magic: Collodi would get a peaceful and wellknown place to perform, Lynch would get more attractions for his place (and even though they are "dollshows", magic dolls are still a wonder to see, I think, and gives the girls a break to mingle with the clients for whatever needs :) ) and gamewise I think it will work. I'm getting my Lynch crew soon and the next thing to get will probably be the Collodi box. Alternative targets are always fun. :P

QUOTE]

I think since Collodi and Zoriada seem to work so well together the hag and Weaver Widow will be next for a fun doll creation list

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Well, I had my first game with Jacob Lynch and I am pretty damn impressed. Here are a few thoughts.

1. Huggy - Is an absolute Beast! If you know your opponent hs no magical weapons on the board (or limited to one specific model) then you should probably start him on the board everytime.

He is ridiculously hard to kill with his healing abilities and spirit half damage. Not only that, but when something gets into melee with him ... it dies. I literally wiped out a Freikorpmann, Freikorp Specialist and Freikorp Librarian during my first game with him.

Even better I had the Librarian cast a healing flip on huggy by using Heed my Words which was nice lol.

His Casting expert is a little deceptive as I constantly sat around thinking ... how can I use this during every turn? But I think what it is there for is to allow you to cast The Light Inside so that any enemy your about to enter melee with is going to gain Brilliance before they get smacked around pretty badly.

Heed my voice is situational, but what you can do is charge an enemy model at one of his own crew (hopefully doing a bit of damage) and then enter melee with the two models thus denying two models shooting. Oh and don't forget to always position Huggy 3" away from an enemy model so they have to waste an AP getting to you to strike back and lose shooting abilities.

2. The Depleted - Are worth every penny of their 4ss. I used two and had I not been facing freikorp I would have down 4 damage extra when they exploded to two other models.

They are really fast when walking as you can shoot an opposing model with a Beckoner giving them Brilliance and walk these guys an extra 5" giving them a solid 10" threat range and a great movement of 15" walk. Also dont forget that some of your own models have Brilliance. So walk an Illuminated in front of them first to get that free 5" of walk early in the game.

They are also suprising resilient as they ignore Severe hits (reducing them to moderate) have Armor +1 and Hard to Kill.

So basically you can let your opponent run up the combat total when your sitting on two wounds and you'll still be around. And even better if you have even a low crow let your opponent smack them around because your blowing up, doing 2 dmg and giving everything within 2" brilliance.

The only downside of these guys is that they cannot be made. I really do believe after playing the crew that Hungaring Darkness should have a trigger that allows these guys to be made from his tendril strike. But maybe that would be broken. But it would add to their utility alot.

3. Mr Graves - Well he got shot to pieces. That's it. His defence four is pretty bad lol and he goes down to massed gunfire quickly. Admittly my placement was a bit poor but it wasn't terrible either, I think he is better hanging back a bit waiting for Huggy, The Depleted or even Beckoners to get into Melee were he can approach safely.

Plus Flurry is not as good as Melee expert by a long shot lol. Although great when you get it off I suppose.

Also, don't forget, like I did, that he actually has a ranged spell that is pretty decent although against high WP like the Freikorp you really wanna get into melee ASAP and out of the firing line.

I'm still not sold on his SS cost overall though. He is a weird, probably too good for 6ss and there are probably better options at 7ss minion.

But he is great looking model and I will pretty much always include him in the crew as he is just alot of fun and very thematic.

On closer reflection he is probably a finesse 7ss rather than an auto-7ss beatdown machine but probably is worth just about his cost. There are models for the same price in other crews that are kind of auto-play beatdown shennanigen dealers, but just because they are ridiculously good for their cost that doesnt mean he is bad for his. It just means he takes a bit more thought than other models do.

4, Mr Tannen - Overcosted. That is all. At 5ss he could possibly be included in 35ss list, at 6ss he is just too expensive for too little return.

I'm trying to think of ways to fix him, but to be honest, he is pretty bad.

It seems great being able to deny an opponent use Soulstones, but he really can't lol. Against Masters/Henchmen with high WP, you can forget it AND realisticly your opponent will simply burn a soulstone to stop it.

You can argue that this has cost your opponent a SS, but its situational, difficult to achieve in terms of positioning on the table AND is dependent on a suit Trigger.

Overall your looking at 4 Cards in the deck making this spell semi-reliable basically 10+ of Masks and you might be able to pull it off. But that Mask is competing with alot of other better uses in a Lynch crew, such as Huggy or Illuminated triggers.

I think that honestly, in his current iteration, he might actually be only worth as little as 4ss.

Even a posion or Paralyze Trigger on his pocket knife might help. Or some other form of defence, Armor +1 or, well, something! Lol.

He dies and does nothing. And unlike Graves who i lost due to incompetent play, this guy just isn't all that useful to begin with, even when used properly.

5. Illuminated - These guys need +2 Wounds or -1ss cost. They are not as bad as some people think, but they are just missing that tiny bit of survivability necessary to make them useful.

Even a defence based around models with Brilliance getting -2cb against them or something like that.

They are close to being perfect, but are just too squishy for 6ss. I used mine to allow Huggy to suck a Wound every turn and have Regnerate 1 compensate it which is useful.

They are a nice source of magic damage if that is needed, but the CB of 4 on their gun makes them very unreliable. Maybe a buff to their CB via Brillshaper would be helpful or better yet an automatic + Mask on their melee giving them auto Flay.

They just don't seem to have a role that is effected by Brilliance, sure they can give it out ... but so do Beckoners. An Auto-Flay against models with Brilliance would be very, very intersting, as would buffing them to either 8 Wounds, Armor +2 or healing off of Brilliance or CB bonuses. Just something more than they have at the moment in order to fulful their high cost, yet average abilities.

And seriously, I know I'm labouring the point, but not interacting in some way with Brilliance despite dishing it out is pretty bad.

One can probably always be include, but two for 12ss?I'd rather have three Depleted to be honest.

6. Beckoners - They aren't as good as you've read about ... they are even better. They give out Brilliance like its candy, they lure like rotten belles, they keep the Brilliance Party going and get into melee with something covered in Brilliance and he is doing nothing to you.

Oh and did I say Red Jokering Non Master - Misaki in one shot? Situational, a one off, but these girls can pack a punch despite their luring/brilliance giving primary role and their Poison 1 on Nail Rake is absolutely nothing to be laughed at, as your opponent is not going to be hitting you back in melee if he is Brilliant anyway.

Always start a lynch crew with 2, everytime even in 20ss games. They make up their SS cost in spades. If anything they are too good for 5ss lol!!! I'd pay 6ss each for these girls (provided they added one to Lynch's cache like Guild Hounds :) ). But still, they are that good.

7. Jacob Lynch - Jacob is pretty hard to use to be honest, but has alot of really cool abilities.

Why is he hard to use? Well not because he is bad, but simply because you never ever want him to die, so that Huggy can keep tearing enemy crews apart. Because of this you tend to be quite fearful of exposing him to anything as with only 8 wounds, one Red Joker and he is probably gone for good along with Huggy.

Now, a useful tip I did during my game is when a Freikorpmann was engaged in melee with a Beckoner was, discard a card to gain fast, walk, walk, shoot an opponent in melee (via gunfighter) then use my zero action to push 4" away again. Now this move was Terrain dependent (as I ended back behind cover after my final 4") but just shows how much movement and threat range Jacob has.

Oh, and my best moment with Jacob. Red Jokering Von Schill on one shot for Severe + moderate damage and then ... yep you guessed it ... using my Ace of Masks to Red Joker Von Schill again for Severe + Weak Damage. Two shots, one dead Von Schill.

The only thing I found bad about Lynch, aside from my nervousness about placing him anywhere near the action (hence why Bodyguard might be a great scheme for him as you really will try and keep him alive anyway), was that Dead Man's Hand is not as easy to use as people would make out.

That clause about tageting an enemy model with the spell can make it suprisingly tricky to use the ability.

Other than that, The Source should be a 0 action or built in like Belle of the Ball of Seamus. +1 inch movement isnt a game breaker, so having it as a 1 action is never worth it tbh. If it was 2+ inches maybe, but 1 ... no thanks.

So there you go. That is my first thoughts on this crew.

Overall, they are beautiful models, a boatload of fun to play and all the models work excellent with each other (with perhaps the exception of Mr Tannen and Illuminated not seeming to benefit from Brilliance being given out which is pretty strange).

I can honestly say I would consider making these guys my primary crew over Seamus, as they are competitive, fulffy/themed, loads of fun to play and great looking on the tabletop.

What I'd like to see in the future is:

1. An Avatar for Lynch that is some sort of mixture of Lynch and Huggy. I actually can't wait to see an Avatar for them lol :)

2. Some form of themed crew healing. Sure you can bring a couple of high cost neverborn models for healing or maybe Brutal Effigy or maybe Yamaziko but they dont going along with the honeypot theme. That is one of the few blind spots of the crew. Pretty weak with no healing (outside of Huggy).

3. A few more Honeypot models. This crew really does feel like a self contained crew IMO. They are more neverborn than 10 thunders and they all pretty much sync up with one and other. So a couple more Brilliance benefitting models will be great for alternate crew selections.

4. Fix Mr Tannen and maybetweak Illuminated. Tannen sucks, thats all there is to it, he is practically unplayable (in a Lynch crew at least) both from a theory and practical look at him. His 6ss is just not worth it. The Illuminated as mentioned need either a bit more survivability of someway to benefit off of Brilliance, both of which they currently lack.

Other than those minor thoughts this crew is close to perfect. Great models, great rules, great theme and unlike some of the other 10 Thunders, rarely do they cause opponents to cry foul of shennanegins being pulled. The Dark Debts is a really tight well syncing crew that is absolutely loads of fun to play.

Hope some of these thoughts on my first experience with the crew helped or was useful to some of you :) .

Edited by D-A-C
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Tjanks D-A-C,that was a good summary of the crew. I should've had my first game tonight but as my local gaming group seemingly failed logistics,it moved with a week. Which was sad 'cause I really wanted the game.

Anyhoo,back on topic,Tannen would've been difficult to include before,now it's even harder. My next addition is probably either Brutal or the more probable Arcane Effigy. But yeah,I comp you D-A-C,more Honeypotters would be good and The Source isn't so good.

Awaiting my turn.

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I mostly agree with DAC but somewhat disagree. My Lynch Crew has had some great success against Lady J and Von Shill crews (maybe I just got lucky).Tannen can be useful, but requires some finesse to keep him alive. Same with Graves. They're both kinda pricey, but useful. The thing I've found is to not focus on killing opponents, but rather keeping the honeypotters alive and making the opponent burn cards.

I've yet to take Tannen AND Graves in the same match, just too many points tied up. I usually go for a low amount of soulstones too (2-4) and force the opponent to have more fodder to deal with.

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I got to play this box for a bit today and here is what I have seen as a new player...

Its complicated as hell as soon as brilliance hits a enemy.

Until that happens the whole point of this crew seems to be getting those drugs out there. I understand that Neverborn have potentially better choices for 6 points then the Illuminated but for sheer Brilliance spreading it rivals (and I think beats) the Beckoners. I found Graves to be nothing really but a tarpit with a big stick, there to get in the way maybe damage or kill a unit and then die. Lynch is so much fun to play with as well, standard turn went like this: Discard a card for a extra AP, cast Deadman's Hand get those Rams in your hand, Strike twice with his pistol and if possible Pip the Ace each time and watch units drop.

But its very complicated, and the box takes a lot of memorization. I do agree this army needs some healing though.... what about Black Blood Shaman? Its got heals, support abilities, and a badass pulse that give friendly units flurry. Picture Huggy with flurry...

Edited by Cer0
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But its very complicated, and the box takes a lot of memorization. I do agree this army needs some healing though.... what about Black Blood Shaman? Its got heals, support abilities, and a badass pulse that give friendly units flurry. Picture Huggy with flurry...

The memorization is the reason I've carried the cards in my pockets from the day I got them. :P

Healing can be had from the Brutal Effigy and yeah, Black Blood Shaman is in theory an option but it needs more models with Black Blood to be effective. If I read correctly, it can give Black Blood for an extended time and thereby synergising with it. But inflicting Wounds alot so not so good.

Candy can also heal.

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Reading this i have got the impression that the general consensus is to give Jacob a low number of SS, do people agree on this, as when my friend started using him, he tried that and said he needed lots with him, so i am just curious what is recommended, especially as im fairly clueless about the crew but have to teach someone to use it tomorrow.

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Reading this i have got the impression that the general consensus is to give Jacob a low number of SS, do people agree on this, as when my friend started using him, he tried that and said he needed lots with him, so i am just curious what is recommended, especially as im fairly clueless about the crew but have to teach someone to use it tomorrow.

Having played him a few times now I can say that a 6ss cache would be the best number for Lynch crews.

That is 3ss for Lynch's defence/healing flips as necessary (probably never offensively unless conditions force you to do otherwise).

More importantly, that is 3 SS for Huggy's offense. He needs to hit and smack around things quickly and move onto the next target IMO. He also has 2 great and one average trigger on his tendrils so burning an extra soulstone to get those off (or buff up the cb when you have a low trigger causing card) is probably needed.

As a side note I still don't really know how to use Illuminated. They seem like a very weak 6ss investment. Does anyone have tips for them?

At best I use them to walk with Huggy and take a wound from him as necessary and then regenerate.

I don't really need them to spread brilliance as Huggy has casting expert and one of its few uses (outside of manipulating already brilliant models) is to give brilliance + that's what Beckoner's absolutely excel at ... oh and exploding Depleted :).

The other idea I had for a Lynch crew is what to do with Jacob?

He has mostly hid in the back and did nothing in my games (can't even use dead man's hand as need to target an enemy). Now I was thinking of always walking him right up close with Huggy because:

A. Huggy blocks line of sight on Jacob.

B. Anything entering melee with Jccob will more than likely enter Huggys 3" Tenrdil bubble of death

C. His Pistol works in melee anyway

D. They can sort of support each other this way as needed

E. It makes Lynch useful

What do you guys think, any tips on Lynch and Illuminated?

Cuz apart from both of them, Beckoners, Depleted and Huggy all work an absolute treat.

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