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Understanding Dark Debts Crew Selection?


D-A-C

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I'm having trouble with beckoners. I'm trying to use them like belles but I find that they don't have the range to stay out of gun range and I fear for their safety. My opponent doesn't seem to have any trouble passing wp when it suits him.

It seems like it should be obvious why they are great, but how are they best used?

I have noticed that Lilitu has a spell that says " models receive +4wp when targeting the target of this spell." Or words to that effect. Could be great for Beckies and stitched.

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The Twins are definitely great with Lynch, but then again they're great with anybody. Lilitu's spell you mentioned there will basically doom something you get it off on if you're also running stitched. Have an effective WP 10 on Gamble Your Life is disgustingly good.

As for making Beckoners awesome: Don't let the Beckoners fool you into thinking "this model needs to stay out of gun range." I've had my best luck with them when I run them straight into the middle of the enemy. They've got a solid defense, WP flips to hit them, minus flips to people with Brilliance targeting them, and maintain Brilliance past the Resolve Effects step in an aura. Get that Brilliance set up and move them into range. Feel free to take a defensive stance, as their (0) action push more than makes up for the speed reduction.

At the end of the day, if you put a Beckoner in melee with an enemy model that has Brilliance, and have that Beckoner take Defensive Stance, the enemy model is at a double minus flip for everything it does, and thus has to Focus to even cheat with a paired weapon.) Then, they have to pass a WP check. Afterwards, they have to hit your high Defense while you have a plus two to the flip. If they can manage to get through that? You've at least made them work for it.

Edit: ukrocky knows his stuff.

Edited by Malicte
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Sounds a little unlucky, and possibly a low terrain game.

Even on an empty board, Graves should be able to get someone to melee range with the line from beyond their range in only 2 activations. Granted, if the riflemen haven't activated they have a good chance of smashing the model in that spare activation. In which case you can try and wait them out, or use sacrifical models to tempt them into activating. If they don't companion they are limited to only 2 shots each, and 2 shots probably isn't enough to kill most models.

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  • 1 month later...

Hey guys, I just wanted to revist this topic now that Lynch has been out a while.

He barely gets talked about lol!

Are you guys finding it possible to play this crew with just the core plastic models?

Lynch, Huggy, Beckoners, Depleted, Illuminated, Graves and Tannen?

I would only really want to purchase the crew if they can be played using only various compisitions of these models and still be reasonably effective at winning games (I'm not expecting Hamelin, Dreamer or Kirai levels of power, just decent and fun like Seamus crews lol).

What do you guys think, how are you finding your Lynch crews performing???

Also, could someone be nice enough to give me the base sizes needed for all the plastic models as I would need to order custom ones and would like to know how many are 30mm, 40mm and 50mm thanks.

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1. Beckoners are close to perfect, but when Lynch is Master why not the GuildHound rule of x2 = 1ss in Cache? This would make it easier to get some SS with Jacob Lynch IMO.

I think that with irresistible, a range 12 attack that ignores cover (and instills brilliance in the process, while potentially lowering df or wp), a range 12 lure-type spell, and a range 6 super slowing spell that could shut down a model that would otherwise be close enough to hurt the Beckoner before that model can even activate, they're quite the near perfect package.

2. Mr Graves probably should be 6ss as he is not good enough in melee to take down other dedicated models. I didnt get all the info frommya friend who used them in a couple of tournaments recently (i.e what models were causing the problems), but he complained that against other minions that cost the same Graves was getting beaten everytime. Also Melee Expert for him has been an idea floating around some threads.

I haven't had Mr. Graves shine in a game quite yet, but he has proven to be a reliable relief model. Instead, when going 10T, I've been using Kang, with a turn 1 perma-brillance, to provide a yummy yet nutritious snack for HD until he gets to the buffet of enemy models.

3. Illuminated are too expensive at 6ss for what they do, 5ss would be better. Then again, the problem could be they are in the starter set (you get 3) so the instinctual thing is to use all three like Death Marshals, Belles, etc, but Depleted would actually better in this role.

Granted, three of them might be a bit much, same goes for the Torakage or Wastrels, etc., some times. But having three separate sculpts for a rare 3 model, for when you expand to a higher ss game, or just to have some variety, is great, compared to Stitched, also rare 3, who only have two sculpts, whether you buy their blister or the Dreamer's crew box.

4. Mr. Lynch...Haven't tried him yet.

5. The Depleted seem fine IMO, (maybe this is the resser in me), but would it not be better thematically and gameplay wise if Huggy could turn enemy models into these when he kills them with his Brilliance give attack/trigger? I just feel like you should be able to make a couple more of them, not in a resser way (sacrificing small ss models for bigger ones) but just some way to get more, because they will die and IMO these are the primary objective grabbers/interactors for the crew.

Fluffwise, I'm all for this. Maybe they considered it, but it got dropped due to balance issues.

6. Some healing for the crew would be nice, I think depleted should heal the amount of damage they do or something like that. Maybe get a (0) healing flip when killing an enemy model. Other than huggy I think this crew could do with a way to heal a bit more, because it looks like they could have a tough time coming back from losing models or taking a beating early.

Healing would probably be good in the crew, but I don't think this would be the way to go. Hire in a Brutal Effigy (if Neverborn) and / or Candy and / or a Librarian for some healing potential.

Anyway, all these ideas are based on rumour and hearsay.

I dont own the models (yet!)and havent even played them (so I prob shouldnt be talking). But looking at the info available, reading around blogs/forums and talking to my friend who owns them, the Dark Debts 'Brilliance' crew seems a little off.

I start out meaning to add my two cents to every part of it, but, as they were fairly well articulated points, even for conjecture, and I had heard some variation on them before, I thought I'd weigh in.

This is probably the wrong thread for this ... but do you think is part of the problem with these guys atm is not that they are bad (and still new to learn for everyone) but that some of the other 10-T are a little too good or as I said earlier have more of an 'autoness' about them?

So by comparison Dark Debts models are falling flat, when in fact when playing against other core crews, Lady J, Seamus, Lilth, Soomer etc etc they are perfectly fine?

I'd say that, and perhaps adjusting to their playstyle might be some of the biggest issues with the crew for folks so far.

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Well, after re-reading this whole thread (I have no life lol) I decided to take the plunge and buy the core Dark Debts models, so that means, Lynch, Huggy, Illuminated, Depleted, Beckoners, Graves and Tannen.

I must admit i'm really excited about getting them on the tabletop ASAP so I'll do my best to write a couple of battle reports and see if I can contribvbute to some of the existing knowledge out there for this crew.

I big thank you to everyone who contributed (and even just read) this thread as it helped me make up my mind about purchasing the crew. That's also code for you all cost me money ... thanks ... *sigh*. :)

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I just got my first game in with Lynch and played Lynch, Huggy, 2x Beckoners, 2x Illuminated and Graves. It was super fun!

Cool, did you start with Huggy on or off the table? I'm guessing in that list ... on the table?

I'm inclined to keep him off in all the lists I make using the core models as i usually run it close to the ss limit and buffing Lynch cache from 2 to 4 is nice for something that can be (hopefully) brought in off an exploding depleted or a dead enemy with Brilliance.

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The few games I've played, I've found that I start with

Jacob

Huggy

2x Beckoners

2x Depleted

After that, I've ran with Illuminated or Tannen, but I don't have enough experience with either yet.

I've got Graves too, but I've yet to try him out.

Edited by ShaneC
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Cool, did you start with Huggy on or off the table? I'm guessing in that list ... on the table?

I'm inclined to keep him off in all the lists I make using the core models as i usually run it close to the ss limit and buffing Lynch cache from 2 to 4 is nice for something that can be (hopefully) brought in off an exploding depleted or a dead enemy with Brilliance.

Always keep Huggy on the table if at all possible! Unless specifically building a crew to get his scheme, keep him on!

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My first game w/ Huggy I left him off. Seemed like it took me forever to get a pair in hand to bring him back. Though I was playing Lynch too conservatively (keeping him away from the action) and didn't really use Dead Man's Hand to try and get the pair.

Now I'm thinking about how I can expand his selection. Either with Neverborn or Ten Thunders - but ideally I want to grab another box set that has effective models for Lynch's crew/Lynch's crew being effective models for the extra master.

I think I'd like Mei Feng, but I don't see much interaction between her box and Lynch's crew. Pandora, maybe. Collodi is a very strong possibility (especially based on the SS-cost of Marionettes and their effectiveness).

Lynch, Huggy, Collodi, 4x Marionettes, 2x Beckoners, and 9 SS left to spend at a 35pt game.

Edited by ShaneC
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Only one addition required to that final list IMO - brutal effigy. Leaving you with Huggy starting on the table and a 7ss cache.

Brutal gives you:

  • A bodyguard for lynch
  • A way of healing lynch or Huggy
  • A cheap significant minion
  • Supporting firepower
  • A model able to benefit from collodi's abilities
  • Another magical attack in the crew

This can help you be less cautious with lynch and more reckless with Huggy. Getting the balance of these right is key.

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My first game w/ Huggy I left him off. Seemed like it took me forever to get a pair in hand to bring him back. Though I was playing Lynch too conservatively (keeping him away from the action) and didn't really use Dead Man's Hand to try and get the pair.

He can keep playing conservatively. Just use the Beckoners to bring him an enemy model to DMH with.

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Arcane reservoir is always good, but the extra cast isn't really for lynch. DMH is not what he's about. I might cast it 1-2 times per game maybe. Moving, shooting and interacting is hat he does most for me...as well as being the bait in many traps ;)

Brutal has more synergy with more of the crew, and I can't find the stones to take both often. When I have, the arcane has never shone. Paying 2ss for reservoir is fine, but paying 4.... No thanks in these crews.

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Arcane reservoir is always good, but the extra cast isn't really for lynch. DMH is not what he's about. I might cast it 1-2 times per game maybe. Moving, shooting and interacting is hat he does most for me...as well as being the bait in many traps ;)

Brutal has more synergy with more of the crew, and I can't find the stones to take both often. When I have, the arcane has never shone. Paying 2ss for reservoir is fine, but paying 4.... No thanks in these crews.

I'm thinking of adding the Brutal Effigy to the crew myself.

As I mentioned the only real weakness of the core dark Debts crew is its lack of healing/resurrecting anything.

I know Huggy can heal and come back again, but the rest of the crew is very vulnerable IMo even with alot possesing Armor or Hard to Kill.

Therefore Brutal Effigy can stand with Lynch and shoot with him and heal him as necessary, and then if Graves or perhaps a Beckoner or Illuminated need some healing he can help as necessary.

Another Effigy I was considering was Mysterious, but only against shooting crews such as the Ortega's as his 6" aura gives 2 to models df against ranged attacks. This allows the models to approach and get into position safely to start spreading Brilliance which helps everything from then on out.

Overall, just looking at the stats (my crew hasn't arrived yet)

My main thinking is this:

1. Some crew healing will be useful?

2. Do you need x2 Beckoners in games below 35ss (where you are able to fit them in without sacrificing much)?

3. Should Huggy start off the board?

The general crew I'm thinking of running atm is:

Lynch - 4ss cache

Huggy (off board at start)

Mr Graves

x2 Beckoners

x1 Illuminated

x2 Depleted

Brutal/Mysterious Effigy

Then Mr Tannen will come into play when going for a Melee orientated crew as he can follow very close behind models aiming for melee and debuff whatever they come into contact with:

Lynch - 4ss Cache

Huggy (off board to start)

Mr Graves

Mr Tannen

x2 Beckoners

x2 Depleted

Mysterious Effigy (or maybe another Depleted or Huggy on the board)

Also because of the crew revolving around the mechanic of Brilliance I find it very hard to justify bringing in many other outside models bar something for healing as tbh most other models would probably work better with masters other than Lynch. But then again, I'm also a bit of a thematic purist.

The only one I considered was an Oiran (which is thematric as what casino doesn't have women of negotionable affections) but I think Beckoners pretty much cover most of the same things they bring to a crew.

Bringing along Henchmen like Collodi, I always think, why bother cuz Collodi probably works even better with another Master so why play Lynch if you don't focus on his core models that revolve around the theme and rules of brilliance?

Edit

I love the Lynch the crew - and have played several games with them. I haven't lost a game as yet with the Honeypot crew. I run the following:

Lynch

Hungy

2 Beckoners

2 Illuminated

Graves

Arcane Effigy

As was mentioned why Arcane Effigy over Brutal or Mysterious?

Edited by D-A-C
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