What are the top 3 things that decide the outcome of a game?

[ttsgosadow]

I love reading this discussion! There are some really valid statements and views about the subject. I would like to add, that as a long time gamer, this is the first game where I hear people say "I was lucky, but you won". In fact, it seems to be said quite often.

For me the top three would probably be:

- crew selection: selecting the right crew for the job, a crew that eorks together and a crew you are comfortable with (know the rules, interactions and fits the objectives and your playstyle)

- know your opponent: know his crew, play style, common pitfalls

- skill during the game: actually doing the right move at the right time. Using the soulstones when it matters, setting up favourable table position, using cover, not overextending yourself, etc.

I am itchng to add 'have fun'. If you see the 'outcome of a game' in a broader perspective then just winning, but ending it with a good feeling making the game fun (for yourself and your opponent) really influences that. The best games and moments I remember have nothing to do with winning, but cool situations and tricks. That is the long lasting outcome of those games. But I know thst isn't the subject here

Anyways, that's my less articulate $0.02 as I am not a native speaker.

[Pagan Wolfe]

Number one? Activation order. This probably come under mistakes, but the amount of times I have activated a model to retaliate against an attacker (even though the attacker cannot do anything now until next turn) rather than look at what else is about to happen is frustrating....mind you it happens mostly after 11:30pm...so my brain is about to become a pumpkin.

Number two...the hand. Forget flips and jokers (jokers happen, but some games I see neither of them) whatever I flip I can deal with, but having a crap hand and being unable to guarantee that I can get off that super awesome ability at the right time I feel all...exposed.

Al time number one? Skill and knowledge. When I play a crew I know very well, when I take the models to achieve the schemes and strategies...it is certainly easier to win than when I take something new or 'fun'.

Oh, let's be honest. The number one deciding factor is VonSchill.

[Twisted Metal]

I haven't read the thread yet except for the first few post but here is my list. Sorry if they repeat anything.

3) Resource Management. Cheating when you shouldn't and a burning stone when you should just let the spell fail or take the hit starts the downward spiral.

2) Strats and Schemes in combination with crew selection. You can pick the right scheme for the strat but if you don't build your crew for it the deck is stacked against you before an init flip is even made. (No I'm not sorry for the pun)

1) Knowledge of the crew and Master your playing. No amount of luck will help you if you don't understand how a master should be played. With experience you learn the finite tricks and full capabilities of your crew.

Edited February 14, 2013 by Twisted Metal

[Boon]

I really love the discussion. I even made a list for my future games for better analysis

I think the mentioned factors can be brought down to:

Luck and Experience

or Bad Luck and Mistakes (depending in which mindset you are in *wink*)

These categories have lot of subcategories.

So the basic question is what you place higher.

I see Soul Puppets point that even with lot of experience, good crew & scheme selection and good resource management; there is only little you can do in certain situations. You can tip the odds slightly in you favour (but coming from Blood Bowl) you have it in every game (triple skull for the win )

I really love the game mechanism with the cards as it opens new options we never had with dice but I am not sure if we can get luck completely out of it. On the other hand how much of luck can we get out of the game before it becomes too boring?

As I am playing gremlins I am not too much bothered about the Jokers and also if the placing was not complete nonsense I don't mind initiative too much.

[SoulG]

For what tier of play? Between newer / less skilled players it tends to be:

1. Over/Underextending

2. Electing when to/not-to go after objectives.

3. Misjudging your opponent's abilities.

[Inquisitor Wall]

I would say:

3. Jokers they are always crucial to the outcome of the game, but they should end up hurting you as often as they hurt you. This usually doesn't seem to be the case.

2. Strategies and schemes. If chosen well they are really the only part of the game that you need to focus on.

3. Remaining focused. As Malifaux has not been the first game that most people in our group picked up, it is very easy to get suckered into the mindset of other games where killing your opponents models is the key to winning. With Malifaux it is crucial to remain focused on the specific goals for the given game.

[Ryu]

My list, in order:

1) Strategies and Schemes (selection and playing for them)

2) Crew Creation (Build for the strategy, take schemes to fit)

3) "Everything must die" mentality - hard to break out of, but totally not necessary in Malifaux.

[marful]

1.) Selecting the right crew for the strategy and the right scheme that compliments the crew and strategy.

2.) Mistakes during Gameplay. Such as activating your models in the wrong order, not taking out the right model, moving into a bad spot, focusing on killing stuff instead of grabbing objectives. Cheating/stoning instead of taking the hit. etc.

3.) Fate. Lets face it. Any game in which there is a random element, the random element affects the game. So yes, you can have situations where a player won or lost purely at the whim of the fate deck. Smart players can minimize this by not making mistakes (see #2) and by intentionally doing things that minimize the effect random chance can have on the overall outcome. But fate can rear it's ugly head when you experience a succession of poor fate flips.

A single fate flip by itself won't ever change a game. Flipping red/black joker for damage (for or against you) is unpleasant, but won't make or break the game unless you made a mistake in #1 or #2. Losing initiative wouldn't be unpleasant unless you made a mistake in #1 or #2.

That's why I relegated it to #3, but acknowledge that proper #1 and #2 minimize this.

40k on the other hand... You can lose 50% of your army, on the first turn, before you have even gone, and practically every army can do this turn 1. Thus that first D6 roll is super important (and the seize the initiative roll as well). I've actually seen players tabled (for all intents and purposes), first turn, before they have yet to do anything. What a swell game 40k is...

[CRC]

I think it's pretty clear that crew selection is important, and has a large affect on game outcome.

I think it's pretty clear that play (including strategy, tactics, sticking to the objectives, and avoiding mistakes) is also very important.

In terms of determining which is more important:

I know that good players frequently win with bad lists (that they usually take for theme reasons).

I know that bad players frequently lose with netlists lists (and blame the results on poor luck).

How often does the reverse happen? It's hard to tell.

I know that, given a sufficient skill difference, even joke armies can reliably beat carefully crafted netlists.

All that said, I think my list is:

1. Today's random pairings (i.e. who you're going to play against.)

2. Skill during actual play.

3. Skill during setup, (including list choice, scheme choice, and deployment).

[karenmitchel1]

This is a great post. I agree with the Soul puppet: Mistakes, Jokers and the flip.

[xKoBiEx]

Timing is a really high determining factor. This is a combination of Skill, Control Hand, and Initiative. Certain models will allow for slight leeway in play...but a good player with a good control hand who gets initiative in an important turn will change the game completely.

Alpha strikes are examples of this... Too early and you may take out 1 threat only to lose more. Too late and you risk giving your opponent a chance to perform his/her own. With the right timing of an alpha strike, you would have to have a horrible chain of bad card flips in order for your opponent to come back. Stacking a control hand will even make a turnaround impossible in some cases.

Strategies and Schemes can never be ignored and less-skilled opponents often devalue their importance. Choosing the right crew to complete the strategy and schemes is just as important in most cases against good opponents.

Terrain and Setup are overlooked on multiple levels. Bad setup can often doom a player to lose before any cards are flipped. Likewise, winning the setup flip often dictates where you are going to force an opponent to setup and can put him/her in a position that the crew cannot deal with.

TL/DR: 1 - Timing / 2 - Strategy & Schemes / 3 - Terrain

[ddot]

1. Forgetting your strategy and going off on a wyrd tangent.

2. Going with a bad crew for the strat/scheme/terrain.

3. Mismanaging soulstones/control hand.

These have always been my downfall.

[Forar]

In no particular order; Terrain, the fate deck, and the skill of the player in control of the crew. The third ties to some degree into the first (how that player uses the terrain is incredibly important), but all else being equal, I'd say these are the big ones that influence how a game will unfold.

Of course, that's just limiting to 3 influences. In reality there are probably dozens, in game and out.

[Joel]

1. player focus and concentration

2. player knowledge

3. the flips

in that order.

[micahwc]

My unasked for oppinion: Strategies/Schemes and crew selection are easily in the number 1 and 2 spots.

I will say initiative flips for number 3, as I have played many games against an equally skilled opponent which came down to the simple fact that on the important turn, one person got to act first.

[Gruesome]

1. Player Choices. (Good or Bad)

2. Scheme/Strategy planning and execution. (good or bad)

3. Luck related events. (Jokers, initiative, etc.)

I have always been a big critic of Red Joker damage. I do not like that in an otherwise even contest that one flip could so suddenly have such a dramatic effect.

BUT...

The frequency and magnitude of the fallout pales in comparison to terrible player decision making and outright ignoring of what gives people VP in more games than anything related to jokers.

Just an opinion...

[xKoBiEx]

After tonight's game, in which skill played NO role in the decision, control hand was everything. Leading a game for 5 consecutive turns with a 6-3 model count and conducting a 6-model alpha strike, I only managed to bring the count to 6-2 (due to the opponent having a stacked control hand and flipping poorly.) A one-model response erased the advantage. Next turn, ititiative and another good control hand from my opponent killed every model on my side and brought in Bette Noir, again, for the win.

Timing and Control Hands have far more weight than skill. Sometimes, it is skill that allows those things to stack. But, often repeated bad hands will cripple a superior player.

[i_was_like_you]

I have always been a big critic of Red Joker damage. I do not like that in an otherwise even contest that one flip could so suddenly have such a dramatic effect.

I'm a bigger critic of Dumb Luck (not to mention reckless) on several models in the same crew than I am of a 1 in 54 chance that someone cheats or flips the red joker (2 in 54 for Jakob) for an extra damage flip.

Many times, models either would have killed the enemy model anyways, due to high damage outputs or multiple attacks coupled with the model having a low number of wounds / wounds remaining, but the red joker just speeds it up by an AP. Or, on the other end of things, a lot of models don't have a high enough damage output to hurt a model with a high number of wounds, armor, object, spirit, or what have you, even with the red joker involved.

As frustrating as both the red and the black jokers can be at times, the excitement or the anti-climax of flipping one at the best or worst possible times is well worth it.

[Trevelyan]

Timing and Control Hands have far more weight than skill. Sometimes, it is skill that allows those things to stack. But, often repeated bad hands will cripple a superior player.

There is some truth to that. In a recent game against a Dreamer player I have beaten before and since, I drew a control hand in Turn 2 with nothing higher than a 6 and a control hand in Turn 3 with nothing higher than a 5. No amount of careful crew selection, tactical expertise or focus on Strategies and Schemes can protect you from being curb stomped by LCB in that situation.

I think looking at individual games can be misleading, though. Everyone will have individual games where luck plays a sigificant factor. Maybe the quesiton should look at long term performance against a range of opponents, possibly using different masters and on different tables. Any odd factor can influence a single game, but in the long term I think that the ability to put together an strong crew targeted at your Strategy and Schemes and to play that crew well will be a far bigger factor than the odd good or bad hand/flip.

[Joel]

Play long enough and you will always see an occassional fluke of a game where cards won out - but these are rare, and statistically anomolous.

In the vast majority of your games, luck will not be the deciding factor, although it might well be a contributory one.

Focus, Experience and Skill win out over luck in the long haul. That's why the same few faces are seen on podiums again and again.

[Adran]

After tonight's game, in which skill played NO role in the decision, control hand was everything. Leading a game for 5 consecutive turns with a 6-3 model count and conducting a 6-model alpha strike, I only managed to bring the count to 6-2 (due to the opponent having a stacked control hand and flipping poorly.) A one-model response erased the advantage. Next turn, ititiative and another good control hand from my opponent killed every model on my side and brought in Bette Noir, again, for the win.

Timing and Control Hands have far more weight than skill. Sometimes, it is skill that allows those things to stack. But, often repeated bad hands will cripple a superior player.

Please don't take this post as anything against you, its not intended as such, I'm just using it as an example.

Did you have a good control hand yourself? If you had a bad hand, prehaps you shouldn't have risked eveything on an alpha strike.

Once it was obvious that the alpha strike was going poorly could you have backed away and preserved your advantage?

was the model you killed of your opponents the right one to focus on, since one of the ones you didn't kill seemed able to kill 4 of your models on one activation.

Was Luck a major factor in this game? Yes. Could you have managed your luck better? I don't know. But I would say probably.

From my understanding of your description you committed everything you had and in effect allowed the enemy 1 and a half unanswered turns.

Sometimes that works. Choosing when to make those calls is a skill. being more agressive means you are more likely to be in a place where bad luck can hurt you. If you had instead moved models to hiding, and apart from each other to avoid area effects would you have lost 6 models with out having a chance to activate a model in response?

I haven't got a clue about the game or your style. But Risk management is a skill. Even if you are good at risk management there will still be occasions like the one you described, but the better you get, the less they occur.

There will be times when the cards jsut don't go your way. There will be times when you take a calculated rick, and it doesn't pay off. (I lost an uninjured Ramos with 5 ss to Ophelia last night because I made the wrong choice. I chose to put her in melee with the electrical creation to stop her. She proceeded to escape (with the use of a soulstone) and Kill Ramos to leave her on 1 wound due to being able to cheat the red Joker on a dumb and lucky strike followed by recklessing and severing the next strike).

If I had know what he had, I could have played my turn differently. I would say that the play I made was probably the right one statistically, as it gave me the best chance to win the game. If I had made a different play (say activated Ramos first and summoned a spider and tried to hurt his supply wagon) I would have probably won, but I still think what I did was a better play, as it was only due to him holding the red Joker that I lost, and either of my damage prevention flips being 1 stage higher and I would have lived. Or Either soulstone flip high enough to prevent him cheating the damage. I was having to rely on getting re-activate on Ramos if I played the otherway, and was risking losing due to the Wagon reaching the middle if I moved towards Ophelia to allow me to cast electrical fire at her.

[Huang Da Wei]

my choices would be.

1. Luck

2. Luck

3. Luck

Number 1 I dont seem to get much of, number 2 deserted me many years ago and as for number 3, I am still looking.

In all seriousness, luck can kick you many times but over a long period it will even out both good and bad so that just leaves your own skills and knowledge to come through.

[xKoBiEx]

I know what you are saying, exactly, Adran... and I agree with you. However, he only had 3 models to my 6. My hand was bad and I was forced to alpha after his first model activated in order to limit his responses. My soulstone flips to try to stop his attacks all drew low cards as well. I'm not saying this isn't a fluke or one off. But the question was what has more of a factor. A good player with advantage will almost always be beaten by a stacked control hand.

Given all equal factors (high triggers in both hands or no high cards/triggers in either hand,) I would say that superior play tactics would be number one. The mechanics of the game and loopholes in some rules negate play tactics when one control hand is stacked high and the other low.

[The Godlyness]

i like the red joker it stopped misaki from eating 10 damage when my opponent cheated in the red joker on liliths damage flip.

It was one of those game changing moments that turned it around for me, because it demoralized my opponent.

Next game i flipped an ace so i had a cb total of 8 to liliths Df so anything but the black joker and i miss, (i had no cards in hand lol) Flips the BJ and lilith dies.

They keep saying i am stacking their deck lol with my magic telekinetic super powers. lets not forget my Precognition.

[Odin1981]

In my opinion jokers are terribly overvalued. Granted when they come up you are more likely to remember them. But putting all your hopes and dreams into a card(s) you will only see 1 in 27 times is bad.

Initiative however is pretty clutch. Against a player of roughly equal skill unless it is turn 1 initiative can end a game. Granted I might be value it highly from 1.5 days but unless your opponent makes a mistake in activation order if you have the start off in the pivotal turn you can pretty much seal the deal right then and their.

Strats and schemes vs opponents our the ones I like the most. In a tournament in 1.5 if I selected scemes second I would almost always pick a scheme to contested directly with the opponents (example they take hold out, I take breakthrew), granted that part of the game is gone now.

---------- Post added at 01:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:05 PM ----------

In my opinion jokers are terribly overvalued. Granted when they come up you are more likely to remember them. But putting all your hopes and dreams into a card(s) you will only see 1 in 27 times is bad.

Initiative however is pretty clutch. Against a player of roughly equal skill unless it is turn 1 initiative can end a game. Granted I might be value it highly from 1.5 days but unless your opponent makes a mistake in activation order if you have the start off in the pivotal turn you can pretty much seal the deal right then and their.

Strats and schemes vs opponents our the ones I like the most. In a tournament in 1.5 if I selected scemes second I would almost always pick a scheme to contested directly with the opponents (example they take hold out, I take breakthrew), granted that part of the game is gone now.