What are the top 3 things that decide the outcome of a game?

[Soul Puppet]

Just a casual thought I had after listening to a podcast the other day. From memory there are three things that I feel tend to decide the outcome of every game.

In third place, it's Mistakes. Everyone, even the best players, make them. Many are fairly minor and inconsequential. However, if made at a crucial moment, that can be taken advantage of, they WILL change the game.

In second place, it's the Jokers. The change that flipping a Joker makes quite often has a huge impact on the game and I've lost count of the number of times that the Jokers have completely flipped the flow of a game. Personally I love this aspect of the game (though I know a few players that hate it). It makes for a great story element to encounters.

In first place though, it has to be the Initiative flip. More than any other factor, initiative has decided the outcome of a game. Admittedly, I think this part of the game is the one I have issue with. Not a great deal but sufficient to sometimes wish there were perhaps another way of deciding initiative or more ways to influence it.

So, that's my top 3. What do you think? Agree or do you have a top 3 of your own?

Edit: just noticed I posted this slightly off target! Could a friendly Mod move it to the Malifaux Matters section please?

Edited February 6, 2013 by Soul Puppet

[Cunning]

I'd be tempted to put Jokers above initiative.

You can win initiative at a key point in the game but then an unwanted Joker can make that first activation worthless.

[Nephalumps]

My experiences line up with Soul Puppet's, though I think there's some variance.

I think if both players are playing a very aggressive game (engaged and murdering each other turn 1/2) then Initiative has the biggest effect on the game. Having Initiative on the turn of the clash is important, and it's often crucial for the follow up turn as well. Of course, an inopportune Joker flip during those turns can bone you, but if you lose Initiative you may not even get the chance to flip many cards before all your stuff dies. *wink*

If one player is trying to play more of a "long" game (delaying combat until turn 3 or so) I think Initiative matters a little less, and the Jokers probably matter more, since the defensive player can't afford to have their defensive actions bork up on them unexpectedly (or have their opponent Red Joker super damage out of nowhere.)

Initiative and the Jokers definitely have the biggest impact on the game though, at least of all the mechanics (player skill is it's own topic of discussion.) Which is probably why they're the mechanics that are the most hotly contested.

[Guild Monkee]

I'd make an argument for scheme selection. I guess that could be a sub-section of mistakes but incorrect scheme selection can pretty much lose you a game before you even start.

[dgraz]

So.........Malifaux is just like 40k now? Make your list, throw it at your opponent and whomever has the luckiest Initiative and Joker flips wins?

I think it's very sad that Skill, Tactics, and Knowledge are nowhere in evidence here.......the opposite makes the top three, mistakes, but that's it.

I'm the most unlucky guy I know......I play all the time where I win Initiative maybe once a game....twice on a fluke. I still win. My skill and tactics overcome poor initiative flipping.

There are some games (maybe even many games) where that Joker flip changed things, or it came down to the turn 6 Initiative flip. But there have been plenty of games where that Initiative flip doesn't matter because the game is already decided........because I outplayed you or you outplayed me. There are plenty of strats and schemes that have nothing to do with killing........so the joker flip is irrelevant for those..........maybe in a Kill Protege or Contain Power situation, then the joker could have a huge impact at the right moment.......but I don't need to flip to Deliver a Message.

I'd be offended if every game I won my opponent said "you were the lucky one this time", and I wouldn't insult my opponents that way if they beat me either. I have said things like "you really outplayed me tonight", or "you owned me tonight". There have been some luck situations.......but those are normally in the best games anyway....where we play to a standstill and that last flip makes a difference........I'd play every game that way if I could.

[Lucidicide]

So.........Malifaux is just like 40k now? Make your list, throw it at your opponent and whomever has the luckiest Initiative and Joker flips wins?

I think it's very sad that Skill, Tactics, and Knowledge are nowhere in evidence here.......the opposite makes the top three, mistakes, but that's it.

I'm the most unlucky guy I know......I play all the time where I win Initiative maybe once a game....twice on a fluke. I still win. My skill and tactics overcome poor initiative flipping.

There are some games (maybe even many games) where that Joker flip changed things, or it came down to the turn 6 Initiative flip. But there have been plenty of games where that Initiative flip doesn't matter because the game is already decided........because I outplayed you or you outplayed me. There are plenty of strats and schemes that have nothing to do with killing........so the joker flip is irrelevant for those..........maybe in a Kill Protege or Contain Power situation, then the joker could have a huge impact at the right moment.......but I don't need to flip to Deliver a Message.

I'd be offended if every game I won my opponent said "you were the lucky one this time", and I wouldn't insult my opponents that way if they beat me either. I have said things like "you really outplayed me tonight", or "you owned me tonight". There have been some luck situations.......but those are normally in the best games anyway....where we play to a standstill and that last flip makes a difference........I'd play every game that way if I could.

dgraz, I quit playing 40k because EVERY game someone blamed luck. It is pretty much the worst thing in the world to have all your wins being "good rolls" and all your losses being "outplayed." But that's how it works when you refuse to jump on the blame luck bandwagon.

In Malifaux, the top 3 things that decide games, in reverse order:

3. Strategies + Schemes (particularly if you don't play a whole Faction)

2. Resource management

1. Player decisions

[Jonas Albrecht]

3) The whims of the Fate Deck: Sometimes all the playing in the world can't save you from a large deposit of 1s and 2s turn after turn.

2) I don't know: Probably something. Probably.

1) Experience: Knowing how your crew works, how a strategy is going to unfold, how to get your schemes done. This is the stuff that wins games. The opposite is how you lose them.

[tadaka]

3rd the deck ya it can jack you or give you the game but the end of the day other things are far more important.

2nd Missions and crew building. What goals you select and the crew you pick to handle them is huge in malifaux.

1st keeping your eye on the prize. I see so many lost games because some one got blood lust and played to kill models not finish the mission.

[dgraz]

dgraz, I quit playing 40k because EVERY game someone blamed luck. It is pretty much the worst thing in the world to have all your wins being "good rolls" and all your losses being "outplayed." But that's how it works when you refuse to jump on the blame luck bandwagon.

That was kinda my point. I didn't mean to bash GW......I haven't even looked at 40k in years. My comment was because, as you said, every game people blame luck....as least that seems to be the consensus at my LGS. When all I saw in this thread were mentions of luck, it clicked in my mind to all the things I hear about 40k lately.

[Lucidicide]

That was kinda my point. I didn't mean to bash GW......I haven't even looked at 40k in years. My comment was because, as you said, every game people blame luck....as least that seems to be the consensus at my LGS. When all I saw in this thread were mentions of luck, it clicked in my mind to all the things I hear about 40k lately.

I know. When I see you post I just instinctively want to agree with you.

And I'm not bashing 40k at all. I'm bashing the people who play it

[Soul Puppet]

dgraz, I'm not saying what you appear to have inferred. Skill, tactics and knowledge are very much in evidence in Malifaux. However, the use of all of these is (as I would imagine is the case in most games) linked to what I have termed 'Mistakes'. It may be, for example, that you have through skill, forced your opponent into making a mistake.

The reason I place the other two factors higher, is because, in a situation where players are of near equal skill, these things tend to decide the outcome, in my opinion.

In Malifaux, the top 3 things that decide games, in reverse order:

3. Strategies + Schemes (particularly if you don't play a whole Faction)

2. Resource management

1. Player decisions

I would put all of those under the Mistakes category.

[nix]

My list is different from the OP, although I have to admit that it echos some of the other posts here. In my opinion and in reverse order, I think the top 3 outcome influences are:

Third: Strategies & Schemes. This ranges from simply not paying attention to strategy or schemes to choosing the wrong schemes. Picking the correct scheme for your crew, your opponent, and the Strategy is fairly important overall. I agree that picking the wrong scheme can put you at a huge disadvantage before the game even starts, although I am not sure it completely loses you to the game. Add to that, all schemes are not created equal, some are much tougher to accomplish than others.

Second: Mistakes. I agree that mistakes are made by all levels of players, and those mistakes more often than not cost you the game. Making a big mistake in the game can really turn the whole game against you. Mistakes such as misunderstanding the rules of the game are bad, such as killing your grudge target at range. Mistakes in movement or your choices in the game are typically worse, such as not sacrificing a Seishin to become immune to blasts when Rasputina activates. Being able to recover from your mistakes is incredibly important as well, which leads to my #1 outcome influence.

First: Skill, Tactics, Game Play ability. I hold that Malifaux is more of a skill game than other miniature games I have played (40K/WHFB/WM&H). Skill take up so many facets of the game that I cannot understand how anyone can discount it from influencing the outcome of a game. Skill in knowing the rules of the game plus the rules your models have and how they interact. Skill in seeing the correct play on the table or understanding the right combination is very important. Being able to understand how my opponents combo's and crew work and picking those apart to my benefit turns a game much faster than mistakes or jokers. Skill in managing when to burn a soulstone or cheat a card, and sometimes the more important when not to. Even skill in understanding when to sacrifice the points from a scheme or let your master die to lock down the win in a game. All of these things add into the skill a player has playing Malifaux, and this skill will win out over initiative or joker flips every time.

At least that's my opinion.

[Soul Puppet]

I hold that Malifaux is more of a skill game than other miniature games I have played.

Although it may not have come across that way from some of the responses... I do actually agree with this 100%!

[nix]

dgraz, I'm not saying what you appear to have inferred. Skill, tactics and knowledge are very much in evidence in Malifaux. However, the use of all of these is (as I would imagine is the case in most games) linked to what I have termed 'Mistakes'. It may be, for example, that you have through skill, forced your opponent into making a mistake.

The reason I place the other two factors higher, is because, in a situation where players are of near equal skill, these things tend to decide the outcome, in my opinion.

I would put all of those under the Mistakes category.

If I understand what your saying, you group playing skill into your mistake category, which you determine to be less influential on the game than Initiative and Jokers. Thats interesting to me.

Even in scope of two player at near-equal skill, I still don't believe that jokers and initiative outweigh being able to play the game. While Jokers are nice to see come up, I see mistakes in game play as a heavier influence than when that Joker comes up. And on initiative, there is often times I would prefer to allow my opponent to activate before I do in order to control activation order of models. I think that being able to out-activate your opponent with the proper models will always outweigh getting initiative.

[dgraz]

dgraz, I'm not saying what you appear to have inferred. Skill, tactics and knowledge are very much in evidence in Malifaux. However, the use of all of these is (as I would imagine is the case in most games) linked to what I have termed 'Mistakes'. It may be, for example, that you have through skill, forced your opponent into making a mistake.

You are saying what I inferred, you even put a number on it in the OP. First of all, you have reduced all of that skill and knowledge into a minimal generic category.....which is dismissive of it in itself, and then you placed luck-based things above it in your list.

But that's okay, that's your opinion. I disagree.........but that's my opinion.

[Lucidicide]

dgraz, I'm not saying what you appear to have inferred. Skill, tactics and knowledge are very much in evidence in Malifaux. However, the use of all of these is (as I would imagine is the case in most games) linked to what I have termed 'Mistakes'. It may be, for example, that you have through skill, forced your opponent into making a mistake.

The reason I place the other two factors higher, is because, in a situation where players are of near equal skill, these things tend to decide the outcome, in my opinion.

I would put all of those under the Mistakes category.

So my take aways are:

1) You place all gameplay under the mistakes section (which implies to me that perfect play is the default and then we just screw up from there).

2) Your original list assumes players of equal skill (which, again, seems to imply perfect play is the default).

I agree that in a game where both players are of exactly equal skill, where skill comprises strategies, schemes, player decisions, mistakes, and resource management, then it comes down to card flips... but honestly is there anything else in the game once you've eliminated all that?

[Csonti]

I agree that in a game where both players are of exactly equal skill, where skill comprises strategies, schemes, player decisions, mistakes, and resource management, then it comes down to card flips... but honestly is there anything else in the game once you've eliminated all that?

Big +1 to this.

[dgraz]

I agree that in a game where both players are of exactly equal skill, where skill comprises strategies, schemes, player decisions, mistakes, and resource management, then it comes down to card flips... but honestly is there anything else in the game once you've eliminated all that?

:+fate

[Soul Puppet]

Well, I did also say that it was a casual thought. It seems though, that I've not articulated myself very well.

Given the size of your average Malifaux gaming table (3' x 3') if you can genuinely control the game that much all the time then I need to learn from you.

If, however, you find (as I do) that there are many situations where you end up having to take a risk, I think that you can have all the skill, tactics and knowledge going and yet, it is at times like this that the deciding factors will be Jokers and/or Initiative flips (at least in my experience).

I don't really think that I intended for most other things to be lumped in with Mistakes but I accept with re-reading, that's probably how it came across.

[Guy in Suit]

Yeah, I used to feel luck had a pretty big effect in Malifaux, and then I learned to count cards better. :Combat_Puppet:

[Lucidicide]

Well, I did also say that it was a casual thought. It seems though, that I've not articulated myself very well.

Given the size of your average Malifaux gaming table (3' x 3') if you can genuinely control the game that much all the time then I need to learn from you.

If, however, you find (as I do) that there are many situations where you end up having to take a risk, I think that you can have all the skill, tactics and knowledge going and yet, it is at times like this that the deciding factors will be Jokers and/or Initiative flips (at least in my experience).

I don't really think that I intended for most other things to be lumped in with Mistakes but I accept with re-reading, that's probably how it came across.

I hope you don't take my posts as negative. They're not. We all have our own interpretations of what is deciding the games. At my store, there is a guy who is basically Luck Incarnate. He recently played a game where he drew the RJ into his hand EVERY turn. I have not played a game against him in about 10 now where he hasn't drawn it into his hand (for reference, I get it in hand about once every 5 games). He is LUCKY.

This without a doubt informs whether or not he wins. And if you asked him what decided his games, he'd say luck even if I disagreed.

When you further clarified, it seemed like you were dismissing all things not luck into one category, and I think that's why you got people arguing with you (instead of just offering their own feelings on it).

Anyway, it's a valuable tool regardless to let Wyrd see how players feel about the overall mechanics vs what they want to be the deciding factor.

[i_was_like_you]

I think where the arguments arose, were that Mistakes, Jokers, and Initiative all do make the assumption of playing in a perfect vacuum of otherwise perfectly skilled and perfectly knowledgeable players. I'm sure we can all agree that from noobs up to veterans, and everyone in between, that is not the case. Even out of said vacuum, they do have their places, though.

Given two players, of reasonably the same skill level, other fun variables, like familiarity with their own and their opponent's crews are certainly important. Different crews do require different mindsets. And some crews, even in some of the least skilled hands, can still wreck another player, of any skill level, even without trying.

Even with the same skill, sometimes we want to try a new crew. Sometimes, so does the opponent. Trying to be familiar with both, at the same time, can be taxing. Focusing on just one or the other can be quite detrimental, though...

...I'm going to put bloodlust here. I know in my experience, I get the most killy when it comes to seeing just how amazing my new model is at wrecking my opponent's crew. A question I got asked regarding Ototo versus Lady J: Why did you just keep beating on her when you could have Stolen her Relic? Well, I wanted to smash her. With Melee Master and Flurry, I tried to smash her 5 times! She still didn't die, but she didn't manage to Riposte, either. He was right, though. I should have just used (0) Laugh Off, since he was already Enraged, to have an 8 Cb / WP and two tries at stealing it. Then I still would have had my two tries at smashing her.

Initiative does play a role, sometimes a major role, in games. See also this thread with its further breakdown on Initiative and how some mechanics / tactics just don't seem user friendly in regards to it.

Everyone has raised some very good points. Knowing which Strategy to keep and which one to pay to reflip is important. Keep in mind that you can still get stuck with a worse one, though. Gotta be able to, even without owning a whole faction, decide if the list you were hoping to run will be able to accomplish the first one that comes up, or whether you should scrap or modify that list to succeed with that first one, even if it seems like a stretch, before deciding that a stone is worth it to get one that nothing you brought with you can even come close to completing.

After Strategies, which Scheme or Schemes you want to take with it. Should you take the easy ones? In tourneys, where each Scheme is unique, do you want to waste the easy ones now, or save them for a tougher game later on? Do you want to forgo one or both Schemes to gain more stones, which can allow for hiring another model or models that might be instrumental in completing your Strategy and / or denying your opponent theirs? Do you want Schemes that complement your Strategy so that you can try to achieve them along the way? Do you want Schemes that are counter to your Strat to hedge your bets in case your Strat gets shut down? Should you announce? Always? Sometimes? Only one but not both? Never? [There are probably plenty of threads on that discussion.] With only 8 Vp up for grabs, the choice can be a rough one. [Really 16, as we're trying to gain 8 and deny 8.]

So, although I haven't made a definitive list, I do recommend we do split the categories up a bit more, and maybe go with a Top 5 or even Top 10 list instead.

[Drool_bucket]

I am surprised I haven't seen any talk of resource management. And I am not talking about your models, cause all games have that concept, sacrifice this to defeat that.

What I am talking about is your control hand and your soulstone pool, both very unique to Malifaux.

Knowing how to sculpt your hand is very important, but knowing when to not cheat in a high card when it just isn't important enough to do so. Many players get defensive of their models or don't like to suffer certain consequences, and as a result over spend to defend models that either don't matter or don't need the help.

Along those same lines, how about SS usage. I've seen players blow SS on silly things like opposed 8 Initiative flips... Initiative is nice, but rarely is it truly a game-breaker... Often that SS could be used to minimize the result of losing Initiative.

Maybe it's my Blood Bowl background (in which getting a Team Reroll from an opponent is a win) that makes me think that way, but if I get can get an opponent to use a SS to defend themselves when they don't need it I feel like I am that much closer to a win.

The resource management aspect of Malifaux is what drew me in and keeps me around. Plus some other awesome things like the models and the fluff and models and the company....

[Adran]

I would probably say,

me, my opponent and the cards

I am surprised I haven't seen any talk of resource management. And I am not talking about your models, cause all games have that concept, sacrifice this to defeat that.

What I am talking about is your control hand and your soulstone pool, both very unique to Malifaux.

Knowing how to sculpt your hand is very important, but knowing when to not cheat in a high card when it just isn't important enough to do so. Many players get defensive of their models or don't like to suffer certain consequences, and as a result over spend to defend models that either don't matter or don't need the help.

Along those same lines, how about SS usage. I've seen players blow SS on silly things like opposed 8 Initiative flips... Initiative is nice, but rarely is it truly a game-breaker... Often that SS could be used to minimize the result of losing Initiative.

There are certain turns where that is well worth the risk.

Maybe we play more gun-ho, but most games I have played locally have had at least one turn when the iniative was vital for 1 player if not both. It can also depend on the opponent you are playing as it could be the difference between the entire Ortega family getting to activate before you, or Collodi escaping your trap and probnably completeing an objective or two.

Against crews without companion chains in some form, I find that I can typically survive the lost iniative turn with miner losses (Up to 1 good figure that probably would have died that turn anyway, they just probably would have activated before death).

I count player skill to include resource management. I know I'm not perfect at it yet, my Colette crew typically holds its own till about turn 4 when I have finally run out of Soulstone, and it dies. It also includes activation control, crew selection, objectiveness and risk mangement.

[underdog6750]

This is an absolute brilliant descussion. Dont know how i missed to till now.

For me personally the factors that dictate the out of games are;

3rd terrain and deployment. This will effect majorly how the game will flow. A well defended or deployed opponent is a lot harder to manipulate than one who is not.

2nd joker flips. These can come at the most crucial of times or most inconvienient at ruin somes well laid plans.

1st strats and schemes. With the wrong objectives in mind you will be easily fighting an up hill battle.

I would put initative in there but its not always the case. Against a family heavy crew this coupd be very much up in the top 3 with their ability to activate simutainiously