spectre923 Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 I would honestly like to know how people are winning with him. The only things I have read so far are vague comments to the effect of "He plays mostly the same only not at all." You are always going to know exactly what his crew will be and exactly where they will be in relation to one another. I don't think he has any way of compensating for that disadvantage. He also seems to be shoehorned into taking models who have been neutered just as badly if not worse then he has.I am going to try him out a few times but I am not holding my breath. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hateful Darkblack Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 I am really excited to play Hamelin now, myself. Previous games with him (pre-errata) were slow, and a win was a foregone conclusion. I had been borrowing a crew from someone else. Now that the errata is out, I bought my own. I'll post strategies and thoughts once I've played. Hopefully this weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayBarlekamp Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 (edited) I think he has gone from a "how can I lose?" master to a much more positive play experience for both sides. I plan on using him in a 30 SS tournament this weekend. Just like pre-errata, I plan on having candy and Kade, maybe some sorrows, and alps in reserve to use. the only models that became obsolete for my crew seem to be the canine remains. As far as being restricted to one type of crew, that was something that people always said about Hamelin. He was always better with "his" models, but he is much more fun and challenging to use with a mix of models. I think you will find that he isn't cuddled all that badly at all. Edited January 30, 2013 by JayBarlekamp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucidicide Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 Hey. I've played... something like 7 games post-errata, and I've won 4 of those games (and most of them handily). I lost to Kirai where I flipped Contain Power (expected), to Sonnia where I charged her with Hamelin (wanted to see if it would work out -- it didn't), and to Pandora where I split my crew badly (testing to see if that could work). In games where I play like I think he should play, I have won. My losses come from trying things out (a worthwhile endeavor to learning a Master). You will largely be taking the same crew every time, but many Masters do that (Colette, Hoffman, Yan Lo, Viks, and Leveticus all spring to mind). It is not a disadvantage considering the diversity of abilities you have at your disposal. An example of how your opponent understanding positioning and models is not an advantage is the Dreamer -- you know what he'll bring (nightmares) and how he plays, but that doesn't mean you can just stop him. Hamelin is a force to be reckoned with, and what he lost were broken rats and tertiary skills (in my opinion as someone who played Hamelin over a long period of time). It is my intention to write up a Hamelin guide once I've got more experience with him, so I'm not sure I'm competent enough to say too much yet... That said, if you haven't tried him out, you need to get him on the table. If you're used to old Hamelin and played him the way that the forum talked about, you'll feel like you were nerfed. If you didn't, you won't see a problem. Pipes are amazing. Obedience is amazing. Understand the Soulless can win you games. Nix can, single-handed, shut down many models. Generally, Hamelin has a high enough Cb and Nix's that people largely can't stop you from doing what you want. The key to winning with new Hamelin is understanding the synergy and forcing your opponent to play your game. If you've got any specific questions, I'd be happy to try to answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96p Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 even if I threaten to derail the thread by this... but how are Leveticus and the Vics Crews which are played allways the same ? (I can understand Yan Lo, Colette and Hamelin) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucidicide Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 even if I threaten to derail the thread by this... but how are Leveticus and the Vics Crews which are played allways the same ? (I can understand Yan Lo, Colette and Hamelin) The short non-derailing answer is that there largely seems to be one or two strong lists with them, even if they are capable of hiring a diversity of models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spectre923 Posted January 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 The crews I will be facing are Pandora,Zoraida, Leveticus, and Colette,all of which happen to be my own crews as I mostly play with friends who borrow my miniatures.I will be getting Yan lo and izamu soon and possibly kirai soon after that. I'm still fairly skeptical any of these are a good match up now.How do you avoid half or more of your crew becoming useless if either hamelin or nix go down ? The stolen will be within three so that is no real comfort. I'm not even sure I will be using any now especially since he stays in his exact spot when they die in his place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucidicide Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 The crews I will be facing are Pandora,Zoraida, Leveticus, and Colette,all of which happen to be my own crews as I mostly play with friends who borrow my miniatures.I will be getting Yan lo and izamu soon and possibly kirai soon after that. I'm still fairly skeptical any of these are a good match up now.How do you avoid half or more of your crew becoming useless if either hamelin or nix go down ? The stolen will be within three so that is no real comfort. I'm not even sure I will be using any now especially since he stays in his exact spot when they die in his place. The simple answer is don't let Hamelin die. Easier said than done, but it's what must be done. If you lose Hamelin, you are more than likely going to lose the game. You'll want Stolen -- there might be one turn in a game where I don't summon one of the things. They can be weird bodyguards for Hamelin, but mostly you need models to sac for Hamelin's spells. Stolen are your target. If anyone comes close to Hamelin, Obedience them to charge away. If they are Immune to Influence, try to have a Stolen Succumb them. Not always easy, but many things that are Immune to Influence do not have a great Df. If you don't think an Obedience will work, use Understand the Soulless to force a Wp duel to attack you (any time you can make your opponent cheat is pure profit). Remember that if you summon a Stolen and then sac it, you can often do it in such a way that the -2Wp will hit your target, making most of your abilities easier. Pipes is your friend for anything Wp5 or less. With luck, you can do damage, get a Charge with it, and make it Insignificant. That's an amazing combination for 1AP. Even if it doesn't work out, you can probably get your opponent to cheat to avoid that. I won't lie -- Leveticus is a bad match-up for you. If my opponent announces Outcasts, I wouldn't take Hamelin. The Viks Whirlwind, Leveticus' crew's high Wp and Soullessness, and the idea of a mirror match all don't seem great to me. It's certainly not unbeatable, but it's not easy, and would require more than this post to explain what I would do. Learning where to place Nix to keep him safe is key. I often find myself Obediencing Nix at least 3 times a game (often with the Wretch if I have the Mask, since I don't need a high total on my own model). This can often let Nix get a free (0), and end up letting him do a lot more. Use your Rats' Writhing Mass to do a Wd to them so Nix can (1) 8" toward them for fast movement. My big thing for all but Leveticus would be to try to arrange a turn where you can have a Stolen near Nix and Hamelin. Hamelin uses Obedience on Nix, saccing the Stolen. Nix gets up his (0) for and charges toward their Master (or any problem model). Hamelin then has 2 AP (and hopefully they are at -2Wp). This can let you hit Pandora easier or make any of them Insignificant. Or, if you want, it can simply let you charge in with your Black Staff for 9, which will pretty much wreck any of them. All that said, there are a lot of intricacies occurring that are hard to account for in a generalized post such as this. As I said, of that list, only Leveticus would give me pause -- I have played against Pandora, Colette, and Kirai so far post-errata, and they are no scarier for Hamelin than they are for anyone else (which is scary enough, granted). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spectre923 Posted January 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 If you don't mind me asking Lucidicide. What would you bring in your hamelin crews post errata for a 35stone game ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucidicide Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 If you don't mind me asking Lucidicide. What would you bring in your hamelin crews post errata for a 35stone game ? I almost never play 35ss. I'm basically always at 30ss. I tend to go: Hamelin (4 stones) Nix (7) Wretch (2) Rat Catcher (5) Baby Kade (6) 3x Rats (6) Sometimes I switch it up some. I've dropped Kade and a Rat for 3x Alps and run them with the Rat Catcher, as I feel they can do really well if they turn into Rats after. I may drop a Rat for a Stolen, or just drop a Rat for the stones. I generally want at least 2 (so if the Rat Catcher dies they can immediately create a new Rat Catcher). I've also taken a Desperate Mercenary a few times, as Hamelin is going to sac things anyway, so I hit it with a Rat and then For My Family before Hamelin sacs it. In my box I have a few Canine Remains (which I don't see much of a reason to take) and Terror Tots in addition to the above. I have been considering an Arcane Effigy in place of the Wretch, but I can't quite justify it to myself. That's basically where my head is at for 30ss. At 35ss I think I'd probably take my list +1 Stolen and leave myself with a cache of 6, as that gives Hamelin more wiggle room against the larger force, but like I said I do really like the Alps and might throw them out there depending on strategies. Hope that helps -- it's a pretty core crew, but it has served me well. I've had a few times people take Hold Out against me thinking that with Nihilism's 6" it's an easy grab, but Harmless Df 7 Kade throws a wrench in that, and I often find the crew efficient enough that he never even needs to attack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spectre923 Posted January 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 Hmmm..Well I have 12 rats, 2 rat catchers, nix, a wretch, 6 stolen, 3 terror tots, 3 sorrows, 2 desperate mercs, 2 night terrors, and 4 canine remains.That is pretty much what I have to work with so I will give it my best shot. Kade and or alps are not really an option for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshimartian Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 Aside from Cuddling the grow list I used to run, new Hamlin is still very powerful. I'll do a tactica on him on LBR once I've played a few more games. Basically, I use him as a very lethal scalpel, drawing models off to the side and using Fate is Meaningless to more or less guarantee a one hit kill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausplosions Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 Why Alps? I really want to take them, but new ones wont summon from feed on dreams.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucidicide Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 Why Alps? I really want to take them, but new ones wont summon from feed on dreams.... Because they are essentially more powerful than Rats for 1ss more. They are very fast, fairly safe from range, can hit decently hard while adding Slow, and allow for strange activations. The worst that happens is that they die... and become a Rat, which you would've hired anyway. Keep in mind that most people won't target Rats, but they have a harder time ignoring Alps. They're even more fun if you've managed to hand out a Blight, as suddenly the Wds Alps can deal become 2. They're a little tricky to use correctly, but they are fairly potent for only 1ss more/piece. ---------- Post added at 06:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:01 PM ---------- Hmmm..Well I have 12 rats, 2 rat catchers, nix, a wretch, 6 stolen, 3 terror tots, 3 sorrows, 2 desperate mercs, 2 night terrors, and 4 canine remains.That is pretty much what I have to work with so I will give it my best shot. Kade and or alps are not really an option for me. You've got plenty of what you need with this. You can do a few variations to test things out and see how you like it, and you've got everything you could need for the core. I've considered trying a more Rat heavy list, but I'd rather do that at the same time as trying out the Avatar. I have a hard time justifying two Rat Catchers unless I need to do Reconnoiter or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96p Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 I'm wondering why you don't bring stolen with your initial Crew Setup. Our local Hamelin Player never comes without at least 3 of them, what makes Hamelin pretty hard to kill compairing with Hamelin solo... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucidicide Posted January 30, 2013 Report Share Posted January 30, 2013 I'm wondering why you don't bring stolen with your initial Crew Setup. Our local Hamelin Player never comes without at least 3 of them, what makes Hamelin pretty hard to kill compairing with Hamelin solo... Spending 9 points on Stolen blows my mind. Sure, Hamelin is harder to take down, but that's really all it's bringing to the list. I mean, if he starts saccing them for spells, he's saving AP at the cost of 1ss. Otherwise they're just there making Hamelin more intimidating to attack. I'd be interested to see what he does with them during the course of the game. I just can't justify 9 points to keep Hamelin safer when he's already pretty safe barring an alpha strike or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter-thom Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 Do terror tots not hold any interest for anyone as a mainstay for hamelin. i really want to try this in a 35p game 8 tots. 4 mercs and then see if i can get some to grow. if not. they are still a pretty hard hitting model for 3 ps. with flay on weak dg they do 3 so add some blight tokens from the rats you make from the mercs. they seem to be worth it to me. hard hitting and fast. with df6? yet nonone talks about them ---------- Post added at 08:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:42 PM ---------- or 6 tots, nix and 3 mercs. that might go better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 I would honestly like to know how people are winning with him. The only things I have read so far are vague comments to the effect of "He plays mostly the same only not at all." You are always going to know exactly what his crew will be and exactly where they will be in relation to one another. I don't think he has any way of compensating for that disadvantage. He also seems to be shoehorned into taking models who have been neutered just as badly if not worse then he has.I am going to try him out a few times but I am not holding my breath. Can you describe a couple of games to show how you lost in post-errata games to give people an idea of where to help? Maybe two mini-battle reports? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucidicide Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 Do terror tots not hold any interest for anyone as a mainstay for hamelin. i really want to try this in a 35p game 8 tots. 4 mercs and then see if i can get some to grow. if not. they are still a pretty hard hitting model for 3 ps. with flay on weak dg they do 3 so add some blight tokens from the rats you make from the mercs. they seem to be worth it to me. hard hitting and fast. with df6? yet nonone talks about them ---------- Post added at 08:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:42 PM ---------- or 6 tots, nix and 3 mercs. that might go better I plan on trying them out, but I wouldn't do a grow list. It is model, card, and time intensive. Can you describe a couple of games to show how you lost in post-errata games to give people an idea of where to help? Maybe two mini-battle reports? His original post implies that he has not yet played Hamelin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 His original post implies that he has not yet played Hamelin. Oh... I guess I just figured he'd have actually LOST a game post-errata to be so concerned about Hamelin's viability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spectre923 Posted January 31, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 I Don't need to lose a game to know how to read his new rules.His durability took a massive hit.If he goes down you have virtually no chance of success.It seems like the only way to keep him alive is to blow a bunch of stones on some surplus stolen.I have the mini's but it seems like a waste of stones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korrosion Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 Hamelin wins the same way he used to. Have more VP at the end of the encounter then your opponent. :Hiding_Puppet: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 ...It seems...it seems... Well, if that is your criteria, then ok. Since you said you only usually play "pickup games and games with friends" I guess that it just "seemed" strange to me that you did not actually try him. I hope you find the crew and models that make you enjoy playing/winning the game again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spectre923 Posted January 31, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 Which doesn't happen if hes killed because most of your crew cannot score objectives without him or nix within six inches.There has also been some mobility loss from the rats which slows down the rest of the crew who need to be near them for the rats to even matter in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hateful Darkblack Posted January 31, 2013 Report Share Posted January 31, 2013 I've played him a few times pre-errata, and it was way too easy to win. Still need to play him post-errata. I'm really excited about the change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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