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Lost Love 25SS Tournament in Essex, 17th Feb


Clousseau

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How many masters can actually summon models they wouldn't already have access too? Nico, Kirai and McM(Rogue Necromancy)? I think anyone else who can summon already have access to those models as they are in the box set/are totems. But if its considered a problem something like Pox's suggestion sounds like the way to deal with it.

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How many masters can actually summon models they wouldn't already have access too? Nico, Kirai and McM(Rogue Necromancy)? I think anyone else who can summon already have access to those models as they are in the box set/are totems. But if its considered a problem something like Pox's suggestion sounds like the way to deal with it.

That is why the proposed solution allows summoning but still limits model selection, otherwise the kirai player in my example could do something like this:

1 Seishin

1 Batsu Dai

Kira (7ss pool)

Totem: Lost Love

Blister: Jack Daw

and still summon onto the table: Ikiryo, shikome, gaki, onryo and seishin despite only having one of those models in their pool, and effectively doubling the amount of models they have access to which is hardly fair to people who cannot summon and are very limited in what they may use due to the tournament style.

Whilst in my first example if summoning was something they really wanted to focus on then they needed to make sure they took similar models in their pool so they could then make duplicates, as well as having a single extra model that can only be summoned onto the table (usually something that cannot start on the table like Ikiryo.) so they would have to think about crew selection just like everyone else.

Doesn't it hurt them enough that they have to buy the models they summon?

In a word, No. I own and i'm sure other people already own a lot more models then they would be allowed to field in this tournament due to the limitations to help newer players and yet we cannot access these models that we have also paid for, so why should someone else be able to effectively double their model limit without penalty?

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One of the aims is to take into account that newer players have limited numbers of models. As I've said, I don't currently have crews that summon so hadn't really thought about it.

I suppose Nicodem is likewise limited if he can only have a single blister of Mindless Zombies.

Will have a think and post up a decision before the booking goes live.

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One of the aims is to take into account that newer players have limited numbers of models. As I've said, I don't currently have crews that summon so hadn't really thought about it.

I suppose Nicodem is likewise limited if he can only have a single blister of Mindless Zombies.

Will have a think and post up a decision before the booking goes live.

Think ye was aiming for limited types of models rather then amount of models - so summoning multiple mindless zombies seems fine as a beginner after seeing one zombie pretty much knows what they all do, whilst Kirai can in the previous example use summoning to effectively double the types of models available to her for no penalty whilst everyone else is limited by crew selection. Each turn the beginner would have to try and learn what each new model was which is a bit harder to keep track off.

Definitely in favour of allowing summoning, but not in abusing it to circumvent the tournaments restrictions on crew selection.

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So does that mean if Lilith takes a blister other than Young Nephilim the tots aren't allowed to grow?

Yes it would.

I'm thinking that allowing 2 blisters/boxes, including summoned models, may be the way to go.

Oh the difficulties of trying to move away from my usual 35SS fixed faction tournaments and to encourage new players with limited model pools (and provide a challenge to more experienced players).

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face it guys Nicodeem is the worse case for this type of rules abuse.

In that it has been forbidden for anyone to hire a henchmen as a blister yet he is free to summon Molly completly by passing the rules laid down for everyone else.

I hardly think growing tots into youngs is the same level as "I can summon anything from my faction that I choose/5 different models" especially since youngs replace the tots rather then create a new model from scratch. (as in the wounds transfer etc.) but i would be happy to say if the lilith player chose not to take youngs in their pool then they have no desire to grow their tots.

If the 25ss games did not have such rigid rules for hiring then this would not be a problem as people would just hire/summon whatever they wanted. But since everyone IS restricted why should summoning masters be able to circumvent it completely, surely you can see that as an unfair advantage?

and yes i apologise if this is "boring" but game balance is important to ensure everyone enjoys themselves. Heck Last tournament i went to the rules marshal did the scheme "Deliver a message" with no strategies to help his new players - did not help that Collodi can do that in turn 1 at 50" away and once the 4 points where scored their was nothing the opponent could do as no other way to gain VP's. Fun for either player - nope, biased in favour of fast crews - definitely.

Edited by Pox
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face it guys Nicodeem is the worse case for this type of rules abuse.

In that it has been forbidden for anyone to hire a henchmen as a blister yet he is free to summon Molly completly by passing the rules laid down for everyone else.

I hardly think growing tots into youngs is the same level as "I can summon anything from my faction that I choose/5 different models" especially since youngs replace the tots rather then create a new model from scratch. (as in the wounds transfer etc.) but i would be happy to say if the lilith player chose not to take youngs in their pool then they have no desire to grow their tots.

If the 25ss games did not have such rigid rules for hiring then this would not be a problem as people would just hire/summon whatever they wanted. But since everyone IS restricted why should summoning masters be able to circumvent it completely, surely you can see that as an unfair advantage?

and yes i apologise if this is "boring" but game balance is important to ensure everyone enjoys themselves. Heck Last tournament i went to the rules marshal did the scheme "Deliver a message" with no strategies to help his new players - did not help that Collodi can do that in turn 1 at 50" away and once the 4 points where scored their was nothing the opponent could do as no other way to gain VP's. Fun for either player - nope, biased in favour of fast crews - definitely.

Perhaps it would help if you knew the rules yourself.

Nicodem cannot summon Molly.

---------- Post added at 10:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:11 AM ----------

You are not helping newer players by doing this.

You are limiting an entire faction by not allowing it to do its thing.

Why not just say "hey new Rezzer players, don't bother coming".

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You are not helping newer players by doing this.

You are limiting an entire faction by not allowing it to do its thing.

Why not just say "hey new Rezzer players, don't bother coming".

Never ever said, no to summoning am supporting summoning - just trying to not let summoning become a loop hole which overrides the restrictions set upon everyone else. You can have 57 mindless zombies as they are all of the same type of unit, but can't summon a new type of unit every turn tailored for the situation you are playing.

so summon, summon to your hearts content and "do your thing" but don't use it to abuse the crew rules placed down at the start of the tournament to garner an unfair advantage.

So when we did the Kirai example with a sensible pool she could then summon anything in her list from gaki, shikome, etc and have many multiples of each but to do so would need to select them in her pool not go out and also hire jack daw, and unique spirits simply as a means to expand her crew options to almost double that of everyone else.

YES it is a restriction, but people seem to be forgetting it is only a restriction because every other faction in the entire game will also be restricted! Zoraida cannot take collodi and his dolls and "do her thing.", Lilith can't take the twins (effectively), Lady J can't take an executioner and nino combo, Victorias cannot take ronin and the convict gunslinger together etc Everyone has to make tough choices on crew selection about what their extra blister is going to be and will not be optimal to what most people desire to play because they are restricted. If the tournament was a simple 25ss pool take what you want then none of this would be an issue, but since it is a restricted model tournament it makes sense to restrict the models available to summoners as well - which does not in any way stop them "doing their thing" (especially with clever crew selection.) but does stop it being used by experienced players to abuse it.

It does appear to restrict ressers - if I was going I wouldn't bother bringing kirai, i've always assumed limited pool always only applied to the initial crew, otherwise it gets silly.

As mentioned, yes it does restrict ressers, but no more so then everyone else is restricted. Kirai can easily summon everything she is able to summon and have unlimited copies of them as long as her pool is used to reflect this and thus is hindered not.

I thought that the standard x soulstone pool you can choose from worked well

Agreed, but it doesn't seem to be what Clousseau wants to do this time around thus leading to some balancing issues.

So far with the restrictions we have Kirai who could summon anything available to her as long as her pool reflects this, and most other summoners can only get 1 or 2 different type of creatures so that is ok they would not be restricted as long as their pool reflects it - the only person taking a hit is Nicodem who would need to think about potential models to summon not select from the entire faction, but he can still have his X mindless zombies.

Does it prevent summoning - no

Does it restrict summoning multiple different units to break the crew selection rules - yes

can Kirai summon everything in her list - yes with sensible crew selection

Is EVERYONE else also restricted in crew selection - yes

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What ever option you go for I'd be more concerned about making a complicated ruleset than the additional summoned models. I think a complicated rules pack is going to be more off putting than an additional model that pops up during the game. So as long as the rules can be written simply and relatively short I think any option you go with is going to be fine and provide a fun, social event that will be a fine intro to Malifaux events. And let's not forget, that's what its really all about.

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What ever option you go for I'd be more concerned about making a complicated ruleset than the additional summoned models. I think a complicated rules pack is going to be more off putting than an additional model that pops up during the game. So as long as the rules can be written simply and relatively short I think any option you go with is going to be fine and provide a fun, social event that will be a fine intro to Malifaux events. And let's not forget, that's what its really all about.

Well said. I'm sure Clousseau will think up some eloquently simple ruleset, and I look forward to seeing a lot more lists based around their core box rather then just simple "power builds" and the challenge of getting the most out of models - heck might even pick up the Vicks again for this with Bishop from the box.

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looks good.

Silly questions but worth sorting out.

1. Avatars - Yay or Nay (was assuming Nay but no official ruleing as yet.)

2. Henchemen boxset - Yay or Nay? I know you cannot have henchmen added as a blister, but possible to take henchmen as the main box?

3. If you have no specific totem (viks comes to mind) can you take 1 generic totem instead?

er prob some more will come to mind at some point.

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Sounds good. Laughing at your example of Nekima at 25ss. Big spend for small points! :)

Although, she would be a big hitter...

I do wonder about the totem. If I chose Lilith (I'm thinking her, a Guild master or a Resser - all new so this tournament is a great opportunity for me) I only have the Primordial Magic, not her Cherub totem. Would this be a problem?

Edited by LupusFerreus
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