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How to make our Masters more competitive/balanced?


Kriltic

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Though this may sound condescending, I think the trouble people are having with X master isn't anything to do with the master, but rather trouble thinking outside the box.

I listen to quite a few podcasts Malifaux orientated and otherwise and the impression I get is that a master that might be deemed really good in one scene is dismissed in another. Granted some masters are more obvious than others, but this game is about combos too, how one model interacts with another model.

Also I think people tend to fall into the mistake of grading a model based purely on its killing potential. If model A delays an opponents model to allow model B to score the victory points is it any less valuable than model C that kills the enemy model instead? Which is the more satisfying victory, killing your opponents models through brute force or flummoxing your opponent with tactical brilliance?

Before you call for a change to a model, I'd like to see a proper scientific investigation of that master or minion, how it works in every scenario, with every scheme and how it works with other masters or minions it is allowed to team up with. Only after rigorous testing could any calls for change be taken seriously.

I am not an expert by any loose association of the word, but I will offer this bit of advice. If you aren't getting anywhere beating your head against a brick wall, perhaps it is time to walk around it instead.

Well, to tell you the truth, that IS pretty condescending.

To act like no one has ever won a decent-sized tournament with Seamus for lack of trying or intellectual capacity to figure out the "right combination" for him rather than admit the POSSIBILITY that maybe he simply does not bring the tools to the table to do it...

I've heard all the same podcasts...

And noticed a difference between what some people say about certain things and what crews they seem to bring to tournaments of more than 8 people...

It's possible that the only real problem with Seamus' results is that a really good player has simply never tried to use him at any large tournament... Ever....

But that's another thread topic.

Edited by Gruesome
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Honestly I'd rather see some tweaking of schemes/strategies before anything else. Make it so no strategy/scheme could be completed by doing nothing (bodyguard) or completed early on with no means of reversing it (Arcanist Schemes). Even out the number of "go here and interact" schemes with "check status at end of the game" schemes. Maybe implement Bond Villain Schemes (if you announce a scheme and then lose it, it's -1 VP). Local group is still trying this out.

Do that and everything gets a bit more interesting.

Even with Schemes/Strategies I use all the Rezzer masters fairly often. Seamus is my anti-Outcast master, primarily. Nicodem is for anything where model count matters. McMourning is for killing and objective grabbing. Kirai is for penultimate movement/assassination runs.

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... implement Bond Villain Schemes (if you announce a scheme and then lose it, it's -1 VP). Local group is still trying this out.

Still love that one. Been using it on and off for a while. (A bit less lately with newer players at the store so much)

Makes denial such a plausible strat...

Not used it enough to really get into whether it changes things much in the context of this thread or not, but I just wanted to give that another thumbs up. :)

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I have used Seamus at a tournament and won with him in a field of 16 players last year before Twisting Fates Released. It wasn't easy but winning an event never is.

Since then I havent played Seamus much as I try different masters and run more events than anything I participate in.

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You should dig up and read through some of the previous discussions if you think this is arguing. This is polite disagreement.

A thread about how to make something "more competitive" does imply that you believe they're underpowered. Otherwise, there would be no reason for the thread.

Personally, I haven't had any trouble feeling like McMourning and Kirai are competitive. Nicodem I don't use as much, and his slow speed bothers me more than his summoning. If you gave him the ability to generate corpses (especially while also allowing him to use Arise the same turn, which you implied) he might just break the game.

You kind of proved my point that some of the masters need help if the two masters you would default to are the two masters that need no real tweaks. As for the Nicodem generating counters I suggested it as a possibility hoping others would could up with improved/refined ways to keep it balanced.

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In my opinion Kirai and McMOurning are perfectly fine. Yan lo also looks promising/on the same lvl.

Seamus just needs a bigger cache so he can mitigate the cost of his Avatar because he is bad without it.

Nico needs a big buff. If not Yan lo will replace him. Mister Ancestor does everything Nico does only more and better currently.

Buffing Kirai or the Doctor is completely unnecessary, it's like saying: "buff desperate mercs". The only master i wouldn't take to a tournament is Nico.

Edited by Orboros
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No he doesn't. But the original poster recommended dropping the suit requirement in its entirety. I proposed a halfway post.

Another halfway measure could be to give him a (0) action to add a :crows to his Ca. It would mean that you could still buff everything or summon Zombies if you had a high :crows in hand, but if you didn't you weren't left completely out in the cold if summoning was necessary.

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He already has a crow in his Ca so I suggested dropping the second crow he needs for Animator. I was thinking of the whole creating corpse counters as a (1) action thats once per turn and needs a 10 of crows or higher to cast so its not too over powering.

My suggestion was to give him a way to get a second :crows automatically, but with the trade-off of being unable to use his other (0) actions - I think Reanimator would be too powerful as just CC: 16:crows.

I'd prefer to see Mortimer digging up the corpses - that's his actual job, after all. Nico's a mortician, not a manual labourer. On the other hand, I could totally see him being able to animate corpses to dig themselves out of the ground - I wouldn't be opposed to Arise bringing up one extra Zombie every time it was cast.

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If u want to change arise make like jis avatar ability and simply flip a card to generate the number of zombies. It would ultimately make zombie fodder and summoning more useful as you lessen the need for cointer generation which is the real limiting factor

Are you from PETUA? (People for the Ethical Treatment of Undead Animals)

Likes me some dog killin'

:)

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When did I say Ressurectionists are underpowered?

You kind of proved my point that some of the masters need help if the two masters you would default to are the two masters that need no real tweaks.

These statements are contradictory, do you think they need help or not?

I never claimed to be for or against tweaking any masters, just pointed out that in my limited experience, Nico has more trouble getting where he needs to be than he does summoning what he wants.

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As for the Nicodem generating counters I suggested it as a possibility hoping others would could up with improved/refined ways to keep it balanced.

In the original rules for the game models with Graverobbers or Scavengers could perform the (All) action Search to gain 1 counter of the Appropriate type, it was found to be incredibly broken for the Graverobbers specifically (due to the cheap Canine Remains spaming the ability in the first 2 turns). This allowed Nicodem to pump out up to three 30-50mm based "Non-spirit, non-unique, undead model's" per activation in addition to up to 9 Control Cards (1 for each corpse counter that is discarded for the spell) that were drawn by successfully casting Reanimator). It wasn't uncommon to see lists like this

Ressurectionists Crew - 30 - Scrap

Nicodem, The Undertaker
--
8 Pool

Grave Spirit [1ss]

  • Canine Remains
    [2ss]

  • Canine Remains
    [2ss]

  • Canine Remains
    [2ss]

  • Canine Remains
    [2ss]

  • Canine Remains
    [2ss]

  • Canine Remains
    [2ss]

  • Canine Remains
    [2ss]

  • Canine Remains
    [2ss]

  • Mortimer, The Gravedigger
    [7ss]

It was almost guarantied to produce 3 "free" (or reduced cost) Punk Zombies per turn.

As is he can still hire Mortimer that can cast Exhume with over a 50% chance of success (with cheating) and the ability to cheat in the required :crows to produce a corpse counter per turn. Add in Rafkin who essentially recycles some of those sacrificed and discarded corpse counters used to feed Reanimator and it is possible to set up a fairly efficient summon factory (against all but the few crews/models that can remove Corpse counters from play).

Nicodem is one of the few Masters I play with a full Cache (as why would I hire a Punk Zombie for 5 SS when I can usually summon one turn 1 for "free" or if needed by adding a SS to the Casting Effort).

Edited by Omenbringer
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Not really, there's a big difference between a master or two needing to be buffed a little and saying the whole faction is weak.

My point was Nicodem himself shouldn't be mobile as a master but if he was able to summon easier, his crew could help and be more mobile as a form of compensation i.e he can summon a few faster minions when needed.

---------- Post added at 07:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:38 PM ----------

As for the list, thats not possible any more as you can only scavenge scrap (unless I missed the corpse part), what I was suggesting is a toned down version of that. Also making sure it is Nicodem himself having to cast a spell for more corpses and discarding cards to do so (along with say a once per turn cap and specific suit) reduces his ability to spam what you suggested.

I never claimed my ideas to be perfect it was just a suggestion as to possible solutions, and why I asked people to post what changes they would make.

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Thankfully, it is no longer possible on that rampant scale. It is however still possible (to a degree) via Mortimer's Exhume spell and Rafkin's Preserve Bodies action (without having to discard a Control Card except to cheat the required :crows suit for Exhume).

Add in that you can still hire the cheap Canine Remains and have them maul each other the first turn to burn activations and produce corpse counters (though they are a bit more expensive) for use with Reanimator to acheive a moderate net gain (doing this 1 Canine Remains becomes 1 Punk Zombie and a Control Card saving the crew 2-3 SS each time this is done).

Personally I think Nicodem is pretty potent as is.

Edited by Omenbringer
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I agree with the logic that since Seamus' Avatar (more than any other Master) is an auto include, he ought to have a 2 higher cache.

Urgh. I agree with the outcome, but not the sentiment of this. Seamus' cache needs to be higher because it's too damn low, not because he should always take the Avatar. If anything, I would most like to see Seamus tweaked such that his Avatar is not an auto-include - Seamus as a Master could be so much more than just a delivery platform for the Anathema monster.

Seamus' problem, as it stands, is that he focused on Morale tricks which don't work on a lot of stuff, and he basically sucks in melee. The Avatar makes him very dangerous in melee and makes his Terrifying actually effective - it just improves on his regular form in every way (the only strength he really loses is his gun, which is no great loss really). Avatars (as I understand the design philosophy) were supposed to provide something different but not necessarily more powerful, but Seamus' provides something basically the same but significantly more effective. This is a big issue, and the main reason I want to see Seamus reworked into something else.

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I have a suspicion, and its just a suspicion... that Avatars were either an attempt to balance masters, or at the minimum were designed in a more balanced way than before. Thus in contrast to the power level of the Master the Avatar either raises or lowers the power level of the master. In other words, a powerful master doesn't seem so good in Avatar form, and a weaker Master is considerably helped. Wyrd seems to prefer designing this way than going back and changing models. I can live with this way of designing for boosting up weaker crews but it doesn't do much for toning back the OP masters though.

Now that I have had a chance to get pretty familiar with what book 3 offers, I think it actually filled in some of the gaps that Rezzer Masters had, thus why I say they are fine...other than the 2 point cache for Seamus.

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I agree with the logic that since Seamus' Avatar (more than any other Master) is an auto include, he ought to have a 2 higher cache.

I completely disagree that Seamus Avatar is an auto include and I also disagree with "more than any other Master"

Ramos avatar is the #1 auto include for a master in the game.

Unless you take another model in your crew that summons models, I have been in several games where the ability to summon belles and maintain that flint lock gun was much more advantageous than going avatar. Also, maintaining H2W2 in some games has kept Seamus alive where as the Avatar would have gotten ganked versus a few very offensive masters.

Depending on the opponents faction and what the strategy is dictates whether I would pay the 2 stones for the Seamus avatar.

I do agree that it would be great to see Seamus stone pool increase to 4.

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I think you make some good points, but I am not sure that you are arguing against auto-include as much as auto-manifest as I read your points.

You bring up some specific niches in which you might not want to manifest. And you do not have to until late game and even then, with planning, you can avoid it if it would somehow be detrimental to you.

Its tough for me to see 2 points being better spent anywhere than the massive flexibility you gain by being able to turn into one of the scariest up close models in the game if you should need to.

Edited by Gruesome
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I pretty well always buy the avatar even when it has seen my in bad matchups such as Pandora and Zoraida. If that matchup happens all I do is play to not manifest early, if I get my manifest requirements good if not its going to be late game and can still definately be a game changer. The avatar adds an incredible amount of flexibility.

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I tend to disagree that the Avatar Seamus is an auto include.

Sure he becomes a melee beast (well at least better at it, he is still a far sight from Lilith, Lady Justice, Mcmourning or the Viktoria's) and his Terrifying abilities become relevant in a lot more circumstances (but Average Wp still succeeds 46% of the time with cheating) but he gives up a lot also. When he manifests he provides zero support to the Belles (who become slower with out his +2 Wk :aura), completely loses the ability to summon any more and trades a great ranged attack (even though limited to once per turn) for a very, very mediocre one.

Add in that his best abilities all require him losing WP and it isn't difficult to apply virtually any spell that requires a Wp resist to him (Things like Whisper from Beyond, Life Support, Lure, Transposition, pretty much anything Pandora and her crew can do, Menace, Irresistable Dance, Piper's Lure, Pine Box, Arrest, and these are just from Book 1) even if he uses a SS for the flip.

I have also found that despite an impressive assortment of durability enhancing Talents and Spells, it really isn't that difficult to kill him (especially comsidering his large size and abysmal Df).

The Avatars weren't intended to be better versions of the Masters but definately focused on certain aspects of them. In Seamus' case it was his Terrifying and melee.

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Absolutely agree Omen, even if I bring along aSeamus I dont always manifest. Anathema is just as good to cycle good cards out of your opponents hand and deck as it is an effective tool. Seamus is a toolbox caster and I see his avatar as a good extension of that toolbox.

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I've seen nothing that changes my mind about aSeamus as auto-include.

I can understand why some people do not auto-manifest though. But even if you do not tailor your crew around trying to manifest as quickly as possible, 2 points does not buy a better "emergency button" for Seamus with anything else.

His worst case scenario is "getting caught". Why would you EVER want to be without the ability to turn into literally one of the SCARIEST melee in the game?

Where would the 2 points go instead that could ever give such a game changing difference?!?

Even just as a threat? Who WANTS to get into melee with you with big enough creatures to take him down knowing that he could flip the tables and WANT you near him to heal off of your frightened screams.

Two points of GOLD, I says.. two points of gold... :)

I like canine remains as much as the next rezzer... but a single dog vs. having aSeamus as an option? Crazy talk...

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