10T Mei Feng

[nix]

Couple things in regards to Mei and Rail Walker. While Rail workers are a jumping point for Rail Walkers, I did not find myself short of points to jump to using just 2 constructs (Rail Golem and Metal Gamin). Adding in the Torekage gave me another option for additional movement that was helpful and worked just as well as a third jump point.

In the second game where I had a Rail Worker on the table, I actually found him less useful as a jump point due to the limited of his movement. The torekage was able to move much better around the table, attack while moving, and still swap with Mei if necessary. The Metal Gamin or Rail Golem were both where Mei wanted to be (in a combat), with the Metal Gamin being a far better choice if I could predict where I needed Mei a turn or so before hand.

Overall, the 10T Brother was just better overall than the Rail Worker, and as I mentioned earlier his companion would have turned a game on turn 2 if I had initiative.

Back on the Rail Walker front, I am finding that its a nice ability when I have the cards for it, and have it set-up. I am most definitely not finding it critical to making Mei work overall. As I play more non-proxy games I will update this post with more of my findings.

---------- Post added at 06:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:41 PM ----------

What, if for Mei, is a better option?

They can be the target of a railwalk, the can hand out burning tokens, they can gain armour. They have shapes in the steam.

Another construct can only do some of that, and a Torakage/Archer/etc can't do any of that....

Adding for this specifically.

Yes, Workers can be a target for Rail Walking, but the Torekage can provide the same single launch point of movement but provide it better overall. With being able to bury and pop out 8 inches away from any 10T model (Mei, Emberling, 10T Brother in my lists) and then switch places with Mei up to 12 inches away, they provide as good movement as Rail Walking. Plus, with a 10T brother in the middle, they provide an Alpha-strike/companion chain with Mei and the Torekage.

The spell to hand out Burning tokens has not played a part in any game I have played so far. Targets are either too far away, or are too easily able to resist the spell. I do not find it necessary to give them to the Rail Golem, as he can generate plenty of burning tokens for his use all on his own. 1 extra token is rarely useful for my Golem.

As for Shapes in the Steam, this has not played a part either. With no ranged ability, being able to see through a steam cloud has not come into play for me.

Perhaps I will see these as more critical moving forward, but so far the Rail Workers have been performing far lower than the identically priced 10T Brother.

[Odin1981]

I could see the torakage as a good independant "railwalker" in that you can smoke bomb then switch with mei and she is set up to not be seen by ranged models but she can see threw the smoke so she can spell/charge walk towards a enemy model.

The ten thunder brother is basically a mannequin for 10T faction.

I believe the spell for burning counters is good only if you use multiple things to put up steam vent so you can get more than just one aura in range for handing out counters. Depending on board position and which turn it is you could potentially inflict burning counters on the entire enemy crew minus support back of the bus type models. In theory if you linked the emberling to the rail golem and he was still alive you could push the golem in get a vent up from emberling first. Then use the 10+ needed to cast spell on golem to ramp him up to quite a few counters so you could reactivate after you finished pushing him in on models and then use him on his second activation to swat those models down around him or still use cooldown with potentially 4+ counters on him if you could get him in on enough of a crew. And then just tank style him out while you send models at vp's and stuff.

[Ausplosions]

Biggest problem with the Rail Golems Vent Stem, is he cannot see out of it.

[DarcXON]

Biggest problem with the Rail Golems Vent Stem, is he cannot see out of it.

I figured you would only do the Vent Steam with him as a last Action.

[FearLord]

Well, you would need to keep it in mind if you were also to cast Pain Train for Reactivate, but outside of that it won't be an issue...

[Odin1981]

Biggest problem with the Rail Golems Vent Stem, is he cannot see out of it.

I could see using it defensively after you have engaged models with him. Then he is already in melee and doesn't need to see out of it. But the benefit of doing so is outside of shapes in the steam figures none can charge into the combat. Granted it is not infallible in that models can still just walk in then swing but outside of a few models with mounted combat or + inbuilt into damage flips they aren't getting to swing on it with a + or straight damage flip then so armor 2 becomes a great defensive staying alive tool.

[Lord Shaper]

Have you thought of taking Johan with Mei at all as another construct option? He's a great hitter and if you modify the list so it's more like this it could work.

Ten Thunders Crew - 30 - Scrap

Mei Feng

--

8 Pool

Emberling [2ss]

• Kang
  [8ss]
  
  
• Metal Gamin
  [5ss]
  
  
• Renegade Steamfitter Johan
  [6ss]
  
  
• Torakage
  [6ss]
  
  

[Kadeton]

Have you thought of taking Johan with Mei at all as another construct option? He's a great hitter and if you modify the list so it's more like this it could work.

Ten Thunders Crew - 30 - Scrap

Mei Feng

--

8 Pool

Emberling [2ss]

• Kang
  [8ss]
  
  
• Metal Gamin
  [5ss]
  
  
• Renegade Steamfitter Johan
  [6ss]
  
  
• Torakage
  [6ss]
  
  

I'm not sure what you're going for here... Johan isn't a construct (are you maybe thinking of Joss?) and you've left yourself with only two targets for the Torakage to use Mistaken Identity or Shadow Stride on. Can you explain the idea a bit more?

[Lord Shaper]

I'm not sure what you're going for here... Johan isn't a construct (are you maybe thinking of Joss?) and you've left yourself with only two targets for the Torakage to use Mistaken Identity or Shadow Stride on. Can you explain the idea a bit more?

I was thinking he Johan was a construct... But also I was going to go with Kang and Johan bouncing abilities off one another to buff themselves... But with only one option for Rail Walking I don't think it will work at this point... at 35 you can add another Gamin to help there

[FearLord]

I continue to be glad for Rail Workers - I had a game last week against a Hoffman crew and one was easily able to chew through a PeaceKeeper with it's Armor ignoring ability... The PeaceKeeper had already killed my other one, but with Mei and the Rail Golem in the mix the other one wasn't a priority...

First game with the Rail Golem as well, and the 'Shovel faster' spell was key to me getting maximum use out of it - I was able to use Pain Train on turn 2 for a Reactivate that allowed me to walk it into a position to allow Mei to Rail walk into an unprotected Hoffman, and still charge in later in the turn for a (1) action, and use melee expert! Handing out Burning tokens just makes it much more flexible and a real monster for the points...

Once Metal Gamin and Traps are available, they may start to lose some of their appeal, but at the moment the Workers just seem too useful to pass up...

I have also been using Brothers, to help with the Alpha strike, but skipped them in this game with Kang swapping out for the Golem. I have also been liking a single archer - not for any particular synergy, but because the rest of the crew seems quite in your face, and I've found the ranged support means I'm less stuck playing one way...

Edited November 15, 2012 by FearLord

[nix]

For armor punching, has anyone looked at the Ronin in place of the Rail Workers? They end up boosted 1 AP due to being mercenaries, so come in at 6ss to the Rail Workers 5. It seems like the Rail Workers are really getting use vs armored opponents. The Ronin ignore armor, have a higher movement, a push after attack, and an extra attack with melee expert. In addition, their damage is pretty similar but they get an automatic on the damage flip from their weapon.

[Kadeton]

Ronin have the same movement stats, but otherwise yeah, they're superior in basically every combat category. It comes down to whether that's worth the slight drop in durability, the loss of a Railwalker target, and an extra stone. (And is either of them really a solid competitor for a LSPA?)

[ukrocky]

On phone so quick reply. You also lose out on tora swap, burning tokens and use of von schill. Both are better than lspa as lspa are trash.

[nix]

I think the LSPA is superior for a Mei crew in most circumstances compared to Ronin, 10T Brothers, or Rail Workers. I am still looking at Mei as 10T though, so the LSPA is not one of my choices.

On the mobility, the Ronin have 2 abilities I look at that make me consider them more mobile than Rail Workers. First is Mobile, which negates severe terrain and climbing penalties. The second is Run Through, which lets them push, attack for free, then push any remainder of their 6 inch charge.

I need to try them out in my next game facing heavy armor.

---------- Post added at 12:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:27 PM ----------

On phone so quick reply. You also lose out on tora swap, burning tokens and use of von schill. Both are better than lspa as lspa are trash.

Your already losing von Schill if your taking the Rail Golem. I can see the point on losing the Tora-swap, which would be more useful with less railwalk targets.

Have people really had that much of a challenge getting burning tokens out onto the board without the Rail Workers. In my experiences the rail workers are not reliable in getting the tokens out there. I am not going to cheat a decent (9+) card for the burning token, and I would hate to flip on the Rail worker and see a high card (10+) come up on the spell. That card would have been more useful on the next attack or defense flip in my mind. Mei has seemed very handy at handing out burning tokens for me, and I have more problems managing the Rail Golem to stay below 4 tokens at the end of the turn than not having enough for him to do what I want. (not that managing the burning tokens on the Rail Golem has been a problem of any kind to be honest).

[ukrocky]

Ok, so the only time I would probably take the Rail Workers is iif I thought/knew I was going up against armour (Ie, Hoff or Ramos, possibly even another Mei). If I thought I was going up against armour, I would be taking Von Schill, as I did at the GT, so I wouldn't be taking the rail golem anyway.

As for using them outside of armour match ups, I haven't played enough with them. I did a lot of theory-faux before the Ramos and Hoff games at GT and IMO VS+Rail Workers > Ronin+X

[Odin1981]

I think ronin are better than rail workers. I like their damage stats compared to workers. I also like how they can poor mans perdita/lilith for tanking situations (only the third model that can naturally hit defense 8 plus they have hard to kill just no use ss's like the other two). I also like how they have a scout type rule for objectives and such being unaffected by terrain. They are really useful in my humb le opinion.

Ukrocky I think the reason people are supporting the lsa's with mei is that given that they are a large base they give you the extra 2" for when your railwalker spell. If you just have to large base models lined up for a railwalker it gives you 2" of extra range due to large base instead of the 1" of a 30mm base.

[FearLord]

How good or bad Large Steampunk Arachnids are is neither here nor there in relation to this thread - Mei Feng cannot take them as Ten Thunders.

In terms of taking Ronin instead of Rail Workers - I don't really see it as a useful option for Mei. Unless you've got a huge game going on, I don't see why you'd take a model to fill a similar role, but one that isn't a Rail Walker target... This becomes particularly important when you want to take a Torakage as well to double Mei's movement options. I have got by with 2 Rail Walker targets, but losing them does definitely hurt, so I'd sooner maximise them rather then cutting them out for a mercenary...

As to being slow - this is true, but not crazy slow. Due to the nature of Rail Walker, you actually want a mix of speeds on your stepping stones, otherwise they'll have to slow down to provide stepping stones for Mei. Once Traps are our, I'm going to be trying for lists that create a "Web" of Rail Walker options rather than a "ladder", so I can rapidly redeploy Mei around the board helping out where I need her most.

In a Misaki list, I think the Ronin has got to be considered a strong contender for the same role - with a cost of 5ss and counting as Ten Thunders, they would probably be the anti armor option of choice for her, unless you specifically needed some of the Rail Worker's other abilities...

As for the Rail Golem, it can generate plenty of burning tokens, but there is so much more flexibility in how you use it with the ability to give it a couple easily. "Shovel Faster" is cast on a 6 of anything, so is fairly easy to get off and while it may well waste some high cards, attempting it (and flipping for resists from the Golem) could equally get rid of some low cards... Having a couple of Rail Workers in the list means its much easier to get reactivate for it (as to get 5 tokens without them, it would need to get a specific trigger in combat or wait until turn 3). On a turn you are going to use reactivate, you really want as many tokens as possible, as Pain Train costs 5, and you may want extras to spend in those activations - it can get them on its own, but they are incredibly useful to the Golem, so why not take a model that can supply more without using general AP?

[nix]

I can see the points, the Ronin idea was mostly based on the comments pointing to the benefit Railworkers give you in relation to armor.

On the Traps, I am certainly looking forward to them coming out. I can see 2 or 3 of them becoming core to my Mei 10T crews, along with a Metal Gamin. Until then, I am still looking at the Rail Workers to some extent but just am not seeing their benefit vs other similar priced models. I understand the points being made about Rail Walker and Shovel Faster, I just have not had the same experiences (yet).

On the Von Schill comments, I have to bow out on him. I don't have a Von Schill for my own crews and have not used him at all. Perhaps I am playing at a disadvantage, but I have not had that feeling yet. Not a comment on his usefulness, just on my style of play.

[decker_cky]

From a pure armour point of view, Ronin are equal to Rail workers, but how often are you positive that you're facing armour? Replacement limb is nice because it gives you a tool against armour without being focused on ignoring armour.

Ignoring slow to die is a nice ability too. Makes them much more threatening against von Schill and Collette, which will probably help other key models survive longer than they otherwise would by attracting undue fire.

[nix]

Got in another Mei game last night, with some observations overall. Game was 30ss and I took:

Mei + 7 stones

Emberling

2x Torekage

Rail Golem

Metal Gamin

I flipped the Red Joker for strategy so went with Destroy the Evidence as I had not played that as much this year.

**As a note, I am not sure what strategy fits Mei best at this point. What would you pick for Mei as 10T?

Opponent had Supply Wagon, and grabbed:

Pandora + 7 stones

Beckoner

Stitched

Twins

Arcane Effigy

I grabbed Frame for Murder on my Emberling and Stake a Claim on a large forest near my far evidence marker. He took Kidnap and Spread Madness.

So, I noticed a couple things through the game. First was I ended up in the end of the game with no railwalk targets remaining, losing both the Metal Gamin and the Rail Golem by the end of Turn 4. This was not as harsh as I was expecting. Its been said a few times that Mei does not need the Railwalk targets all the time, but its good to see it in action. When I did railwalk during the game it was only to a single target. At the end of the game Mei was just fine using her 2AP to charge a model and saving her casting expert for Scalding Breath.

The other observation I had was on her hand. The common thread is to wait two turns to build up Mei's hand then throw her into combat. So far I have trouble doing that. Inevitably I end up with a turn 2 hand containing 3 severe cards plus my railwalker trigger card (7:tomes or higher). One of those 3 severe is typically a :masks so I have a high card for Tigers Fury. At that point, it is pretty easy to be lined up for an attack run on a grouping of opposing models.

So, what are other people seeing? What are your thoughts. Do you wait for an additional turn to try and stack 5+ of your 7 cards or do you jump out aggressively? I find myself playing more aggressively, which leaves Mei in combat but not typically at a disadvantage. If my hand is not that good I end up waiting, but I guess my question is where is the breaking point for you?

[Odin1981]

I have yet to play her yet but I see claim jump as one of the ones she should be good/great for. Granted I am unsure if she or misaki would be best for it (given that your using her as 10t but both in theory should like to play it). I think depending on what you have in your hand depends on when you go in with her so it could be turn 2 or 3. I would just guess that the most reliable option would be on 3, but if you draw what you need on 2 and can use her so be it. I could also see her as a slaughter role if you know opponent doesn't have a lot of armor ignore. Her + golem at armor 2 can be a bunch of trouble for you opponents if they are light on armor removal. Once again though I believe misaki and her will be fighting a bit with this scheme as well because they both seem to be good at the same ones. I could see her sturdy enough to pick up treasure hunt with pose up and take it to have another model hand off to a model who runs away with it. Those are the three that off the top of my head spring out to me the most.

To me the cards I would need would be 1 7+ tome (for terminus or 3rd walking target trigger), one 10+ crow ( the pose trigger on terminus kick), and around 2 8+ of masks (for a whirlwind happy showing potentially using 1-2 ss to boost hits depending on how high # of masks are for you and also having the scalding card trigger if playing against armor or golem is positioned to come in and clean up anything alive left from mei's pop and drop) to be a perfect hand to me for mei to use. Granted its just my opinion and quite a few people will have their own idea on what is preferable to use for them.

I think the important thing with mei just like sword viks is you don't have to kill everybody but when you push her in you do at least need to kill the potential threats to her like stuff with combat attack skill 6+ or better. So she can not have to burn ss's on defense flips/damage prevention.

How did you like the double torakage with her? would you still double it up with them or would you run 1 plus a brother? Or our you just running mei as 10t or do you have arcanists as well? Thanks for being forthcoming with your play experiances those far it helps to see how theorycrafting would be successful or not and it gives a outside impression of what she can do (can't wait till 21st when store order comes in she + metal gamin our my personal can't wait to gets).

Edited November 16, 2012 by Odin1981

[Adran]

Just used the rail golem for the first time last night.

I took 2 rail workers to see how it went

I managed to pain train on turn 2 and 4, and if I read the rules carefully would have managed it on turn 3 as well. (every time I took Black blood damage I should have gained a burning token)

I worked hard to generate those Burning counters, although the loss of Mei early on turn 2 did mean I couldn't add them to enemy models very easily. Also it seemed to me that an otherwise unused 0 to generate the Burning token is often better than a 1 action to gain several.

I assume thats how you normally get the tokens on him as I can't see many other ways to get them.

I will try without the RAil workers soon and see if I can keep the fires burning, but they probably gave the Golem 4-5 tokens in 4 turns between the 2 of them, so thats a whole extra activation and all it cost them was a low card and a 0 action

[nix]

For me the rail golem turns usually go as follows (basic idea, every game will be different).

• Turn 1
  
  • Activate (Generate 1 burning counter = 1)
    
  • Walk twice (Generate 1 burning counter = 2)
    

  [*]Turn 2

  • Activate (generate 1 burning counter = 3)
    
  • Burn 1 counter for charge (lose a counter = 2)
    
  • Swing with a :rams (generate 1 burning counter = 3)
    
  • Burn 1 counter for a free swing (lose a counter = 2)
    
  • Take damage from return attacks (typically generate 2 or more counters = 4)
    

  [*]Turn 3

  • Activate (generate 1 burning counter = 5)
    
  • Continue
    

I have rarely had problems with :rams in hand or coming up in the paired flips to generate burning counters on his swings. If I am fighting something that causes damage (black blood/etc), I can regularly generate 4+ counters per turn, often having too many and burning my (0) actions for on damage and sometimes attack. I aim for reactivate on turn 3 so I do not over extend or start hitting damage from having 4+ burning counters.

On the above, my turn 3 order is typically based around how many high rams have in hand and the board. If I can generate 1-2 more (pretty easy) burning tokens during the turn, I do so then burn off the 5 for reactivate. If nothing is close enough to attack, I will typically burn the reactivate then walk twice for the single burning token.

In addition, I often find that by turn 4 my opponent is focusing on me, and I end up down around my hard to kill. This is often when I use Cool Down to heal back up, leaving myself with 2-3 burning tokens after the cool down.

[Adran]

Doh! Forgot opponents might actually hit him.

In a rare occurance last night he never ever got targetted for an attack. Despite being in Melee with Killjoy and Lileth, and later with Collodi and his marionettes. Somehow I doubt thats going to be common.

[FearLord]

Doh! Forgot opponents might actually hit him.

In a rare occurance last night he never ever got targetted for an attack. Despite being in Melee with Killjoy and Lileth, and later with Collodi and his marionettes. Somehow I doubt thats going to be common.

I'm not sure how rare that will be really... due to feeding him tokens, I'm not sure how often people are going to start attacking him when they don't think they can down him in a turn... Mine wasn't targeted at all in the game I played with it either...

The simple fact is, regardless of how many you have, they're going to be useful. The ability to up them on your own (without having to waste attacks to do it) makes it much more flexible (without it being attacked or relying on having the Ram)... I finished the 1st turn on 3 tokens, got two activations on turn 2 (one double walk for position, one cheap charge and melee expert and additional attack). Without Rail Workers, it would have done far less on turn two...