Keeping Misaki Alive

[osoi]

This is where I have said Misaki is as much about Board Control as surgical strike. If she doesnt kill a model all game but dissuades your opponent from a zone on the table that is important to you, then she has done her job.

Its the same with Seamus sometimes where the threat of his Handcannon is nenough to keep people out of reach and he doesnt fire a shot.

[FearLord]

@Kadeton - the only model of those 4 that won't be in a majority of Misaki lists is the student, and it does have other applications outside of this combo (not sure I'd be willing to take it over Shang when he's cheaper and adds more to Misaki than the student, but he's certainly an option if you've got a 10 Thunders beat stick in your list anyway...)

As for getting out activated, it's possible to make what I would consider a decent 'all round' crew with another 6 + activations (say 3 traps, 2 wastrels and Yamaziko) at 35ss, and there are several alternatives available as well...

I think there is some potential in this, especially if you're holding some Rams for decapitate and your opponent has an expensive model and not too many cards left...

[Twisted Metal]

Sorry I don't have my book on me. Is Down Burst a pulse? If so Misaki is in unaffected.

[FearLord]

Downburst is not a pulse - it effects models within 3" of the target with no restrictions...

[dgraz]

I still see the combo as a gimmick that you might pull off once in a while....especially with the addition of the student. I can't see myself ever doing that part of it. Shang is much more versatile for Misaki.

[Cornelious1424]

I still see the combo as a gimmick that you might pull off once in a while....especially with the addition of the student. I can't see myself ever doing that part of it. Shang is much more versatile for Misaki.

Agreed, I'd much rather have the potential to re-flip my starting duel total/the extra card draw each turn. Also, with Wk/5 and flight, I'm finding that Shang is a nice way to position Torekage with Mistaken Identity or Shadow Stride.

[Kadeton]

The only model of those 4 that won't be in a majority of Misaki lists is the student, and it does have other applications outside of this combo (not sure I'd be willing to take it over Shang when he's cheaper and adds more to Misaki than the student, but he's certainly an option if you've got a 10 Thunders beat stick in your list anyway...)

I doubt I'd take the 10T Brother in most lists unless I was planning on this sort of thing specifically. Even in this scenario, he's simply a way to make everyone activate simultaneously, and adds nothing else (I presume he's just doing his super-defensive stance thing and surviving). The positioning requirements for Companion work well for gunlines (like the Ortegas) and weird gunline equivalents (like Seamus' lure-line) but in my opinion are a double-edged sword for melee-heavy crews.

Anyway, yes - I can see plenty of Misaki lists having Torakage and 10T Brothers. The Student is the sticking point - he will only ever be included to pull off this trick (or similar), since Shang is otherwise superior. He's the lynchpin of the trick, since he allows the Torakage to get back out and reset the boomerang. He's super easy to kill and thereby wreck the whole deal.

[EnternalVoid]

While I will agree Shang will be more versatile to Misaki that does not mean it will add more to the crew as a whole. Don't get me wrong, I plan to use Shang, but that does not mean he will always be the totem I use. For one as it is already said, Misaki might end up being nothing but a deterrent at times so having a totem that can do stuff for the rest of my crew can be helpful.

First off Shang only really helps Misaki, and while this can be big it might be all he can do most of the time. His only other things are being a swapping point for a Torakage and maybe a back-up fighter in a pinch. His survivability is only a little better than the Student, his defense being 5 rather than 4. Both have the same number of wounds but Shang is more likely to lose a wound here or there with his lucky charm ability. I do not see Shang surviving much more than the student if someone wants it died. More so with only 4 wounds and few healing options using them to fix up Shang might draw them from other models that need them. Basically anyone that wants the Student dead could likely just as easily kill Shang.

As for rush of magic, having played Lilith a fair bit I will say it is nice, but sadly more often than not that is all it is, nice. Plenty of times it added nothing to relevant to my hand. It also can be an indicator to my opponent if I actually got a pretty great hand and the card I drop is a 6 or 7. It means all my cards are better than that or the suits I want for my plans. I would rather have it then not, but without Arcane Reservoir it does not feel as great.

Shang strikes me as better if you expect Misaki to be in an unfair fight or is head hunting a Master. In turn I see the Student useful in cases where you can trick out little elements of your crew to utilize their abilities in ways that normally they cannot. Giving Fast to Ototo can mean one extra attack, or it can mean he can move 4" and still Furry on a target. Fast on that Torakage might mean first turn on a Treasure hunt he can swap to the chest, pick it up, and still move one time backward. If you had a high enough mask in hand you can still attempt to lay down smoke to protect your chest carrier better. Again for me the Student is not just the one trick I talked about before but what options he can bring to the crew as a whole, where Shang is primarily only what options he can bring to Misaki.

Also the student can make itself or another insignificant model significant should you need it for a scheme or strategy. Not a great ability but can throw people for a loop if they forget about it.

That said Shang is an interesting item when it comes to those unfair fights I mentioned. For one, his ability says you can re-flip one card, not the whole flip. This means if the enemy put you at a negative you can re-flip that low card you had while perhaps keeping a good card for the other. Also the fact it can be used for Duels, not just attacks, means you can use it for Wp, moral, and simple duels that you might not want to draw cards from your hand for if you can help it. He can become very important when you want to cheat second in a duel so that you can gauge your opponent’s resources before literally playing your hand.

[osoi]

Shang also has a higher suited Ca for downburst which is such a useful little spell for him to cast instead of Misaki plus flight makes him much more mobile. The biggest problem with the Student is it often gets left behind.

[dgraz]

Shang also has a higher suited Ca for downburst which is such a useful little spell for him to cast instead of Misaki plus flight makes him much more mobile. The biggest problem with the Student is it often gets left behind.

Agreed. If you're playing the bounce around / teleporting / deception / off-balancing game with Misaki and Torakage that you probably should be playing....then that Student will be spending a lot of time by himself.

Shang can also fight.

[Kadeton]

As always, your mileage may vary. If you like the Student I'm not seriously trying to dissuade you from using him. I'm really just warning against basing a crew around an "awesome combo" - in a crew, synergy is good, but co-dependence is bad.

I think Shang kicks the pants off the Student, but that may be because I've had so many bad experiences with the Student being useless in the past. While he does have situational stuff (like becoming significant if he can find a friend) he's mostly for that one-trick one-turn Fast, which I've never found to be clutch. I'd take Rush of Magic alone over that any day.

(Incidentally, if you can afford to discard a mid-high card like an 8 when you do your Rush, even if it's not your lowest card, you can seriously mislead your opponent about the strength of your hand, and freak him out enough to alter his plans. It is so satisfying if you can pull it off.)

[EnternalVoid]

I think I will have to agree to disagree as I think the point has been missed, I like Shang, I will use him when I feel the strategy or crew determine it, but I believe in knowing my options and being aware of how to use them. If Shang is the only totem for you and the only one you will consider, go for it.

If I take the student, it is not about a single 'Awesome combo', it is about options. If I take Shang is will be the same reason, it will be about the options. It is the same way I play Zoraida or other masters.

[Kadeton]

Um, okay! The "awesome combo" was aimed at Ghaz's slingshot idea rather than at your playstyle or ability, so I hope you didn't take it personally.

My only contention with anything you've said is in statements like "Shang only really helps Misaki" and "Shang strikes me as [only] better if you expect Misaki to be in an unfair fight or is head hunting a Master", which we can absolutely agree to disagree about.

[dgraz]

To me, it's never really been a debate over whether Shang is better than the Student or not. I don't think that giving fast to a model twice a game is worth 4ss. So, other than the Child, any totem is pretty much better than the Student in a non-outcast crew......even when I play the Viks, I don't use him.

So it's not a matter of Shang is the only totem for me, since the only other option is the Student...which I don't use with anyone..........well then by process of elimination Shang is it.

Everyone plays differently, you value that fast more than I do. You place less value on rush of magic than I do.

I will however disagree that Shang is killed as easily as the Student. Shang has much better maneuverability...with a higher move and fly, he can move above and over terrain...he also never has to spend an All action standing completely still to get any SS worth out of him...thus being vulnerable. He can always move because a good part of his value is given just by him being on the table. He is not required to be extremely close to use his abilities...unlike the Student who is going to be more predictable in his movements.

[FearLord]

I doubt I'd take the 10T Brother in most lists unless I was planning on this sort of thing specifically. Even in this scenario, he's simply a way to make everyone activate simultaneously, and adds nothing else (I presume he's just doing his super-defensive stance thing and surviving). The positioning requirements for Companion work well for gunlines (like the Ortegas) and weird gunline equivalents (like Seamus' lure-line) but in my opinion are a double-edged sword for melee-heavy crews.

Anyway, yes - I can see plenty of Misaki lists having Torakage and 10T Brothers. The Student is the sticking point - he will only ever be included to pull off this trick (or similar), since Shang is otherwise superior. He's the lynchpin of the trick, since he allows the Torakage to get back out and reset the boomerang. He's super easy to kill and thereby wreck the whole deal.

Companion is always a double edged sword - it is a fine balancing act between taking your activations together to overwhelm your opponent and giving your opponent free reign to catch you later in the turn... Used correctly however, it can be a powerful tool to both maximise damage your crew can dish out and minimise the damage it takes...

The mere fact that a Ten Thunders Brother can companion with any other Ten Thunders model is extremely useful, as you can always get a small alpha strike going. That alone would be worth their inclusion, but the ability to make any other Ten Thunders models companion together by being part of a chain is huge, and makes them of extreme value to me at least (and it's worth pointing out that with Archers you could do a Ten Thunders gun line, and with Oiran you could do a lure-line...) - Ten Thunders Brothers and Torakage together are what gives Ten Thunders their "tricks" - I really don't see using both and using them together as a bad thing - I think it will actually be a faction defining thing in fact...

Outside of Companion, they're actually pretty decent models in their own right - 5ss with melee expert, expert defense and a trigger to go into defensive stance and a decent speed - what isn't to like?

The Student is obviously less useful for a Ten Thunders Crew, and Shang does seem like he'll be useful to have around (and has a huge cool factor!) but that doesn't mean that the student does not have its uses - outside of this combo (which has the potential to be very powerful in the right circumstances), handing out fast to other models in the crew is useful - Ototo or other slow beaters like an extra walk action, Yamaziko can make good use from it, and Archers can do a beastly amount of damage at range (and wouldn't need to move very far from the student to do it...). Torakage also mean that he's relatively easy to protect, hiding at the back behind their smoke bombs...

It would require careful thought and a strategy that allowed for a more 'defensive' set up would certainly help, but I'm not ruling it out as an option without more testing...

[dgraz]

As a long time Perdita player, I know full well the power of a well timed companion alpha strike. I can see the 10T Bro making it into most of my list just for that. But I agree with Fearlord that he is a decent model even without that.....not great, but decent - bringing the total companion makes him great.

Even playing with McCabe and a group of Guild Hounds I was able to tear down a Rail Golem in one activation....hit him hard once and knocked him down to 4-5 Wds...then the dogs just (+1) walked in and attacked twice each....1 Wd, 1 Wd, 1 Wd, etc....bye Golem.

[Ghaz]

My suggestion for the student was not intended to mean he was a superior replacement to Shang. I was just offering an option for the initial question in the thread which is how to keep Misaki from getting murdered because she gets stuck in combat.

Truth be told there's a good chance I'll never even use it. I was able to take out half of my opponents Freikorp models with Misaki alone and Shang definitely helped with the rush of magic and reflips. The student on the other hand has never seemed to pay me back the four points I spent on him.

[EnternalVoid]

Um, okay! The "awesome combo" was aimed at Ghaz's slingshot idea rather than at your playstyle or ability, so I hope you didn't take it personally.

Then my appologies to you for mistaking your comment.

As for fast, if that one or two use of Fast wins me the game or puts me that much into an solid position, it is a worth 4ss. Something such as flipping Treasure Hunt would value having the capability of giving a model an extra AP. Have a model run into base with the chest, Torakage gets fast, and now it can mistake Identity, pick up the chest, and move once backward. If you have the 10T brother you can companion and have Misaki move to the chest, student give fast, Torakage do its movement swap and retreat, and the 10T brother can move to be base to base with the Torakage for a handoff of the chest. If you had the Mask in hand to do Mistaken Identity you can even use Smoke Bombs to help add protect to him outside of being around 16" from the enemy's deployment zone. If you also lined up Ototo or another beat stick well you can give them fast next turn to help deal with anything that is coming after your Torakage, if you lined up the 10T brother as well you can even use Companion to help insure your Torakage can activate too to have him move back. The student can actually give a beatstick like Ototo a 14" threat with its Melee expert or 12" if he walks then Charges for two attacks. Taelor it would be 15" and 13" respectfully in her case. The student might also be useful in the events of Line in the Sand or Destroying Evidence.

In turn, if I flip contained power, I am likely going to look to Shang first. Same with Distract or Supply Wagon.

Edited September 29, 2012 by EnternalVoid

[Blog]

I guess I'll throw in some stuff.

How to keep Misaki alive?

1. Position her on the table carefully, know your first target. Know what your opponents models do (if you can)

2. Make sure the first target cant kill her (ie a minion who doesn't have access to stones)

3. make sure you fully understand "You're mine" and use it in the best situation possible. This is one of her built in survival mechanics.

4. Activate her late in the turn, hopefully your opponent will have less cards than you do at this point.

5. Torakage, and their mistaken identity spell and smoke bombs

6. Yamaziko, she I feel is going to be in a majority of lists if not all of them, she does so much for 6ss. Giving Misaki fast, instead of reckless makes her more survivable.

7. Oiran and lure.