10 Thunder's "Donations" to the Resurrectionist Cause

[SoulG]

Hi everyone. Got my hands on the third book, and I've ran a bunch of proxy games with friends--primarily with Yan Lo. That said, I don't want to talk about Yan Lo (he's awesome) in this thread, but instead I want to talk about how I feel the Ten Thunders book adds to the Ressurectionist faction as a whole, and how other masters can get mileage out of the presented minions.

Note that almost all my proxy-fights have been with Yan Lo, so my utility with other masters is largely theoryfaux. I also have to say that, over-all, all my proxy fights have been a blast. At least from an internal point of view (minimal book 1-3 models), Wyrd really hit a home run on the game design with this one.

Ashigaru -- 4ss

So, many of you have heard me rant about how, when building a Ressurectionist crew, you have to think of your models as highly specialized tools that perform a specific purpose before dying and (usually) being recycled. Compare to the Guild who can, for 4-5ss, get a model that is above average in everything. The Ashigaru is a Guild model that happens to be a skeleton, and thus green.

The Ashigaru is a generalist melee beatstick with above-average melee capability and who (get this) trades a ranged option for good mobility and a "Thou Shall Not Pass" ability (think of it as a reverse disengaging strike at a range of 3". I could see fielding these as shock troops to tie up an enemy or as area denial.

-- Nicodem

I see Ashigaru fulfilling their fluff role with Nicodem--bodyguards. They are cheap melee beatsticks, allowing Nicodem to kind of tread the line between lots of corpse counters and having effective models. The +2 CB / Def aura turns a line of Ashigaru into a formidable foe.

-- McMourning

I actually don't see using them terribly much with McMourning. Their best attribute (SS efficiency) is relatively wasted on him, and usually he requires minions to reach objectives and supply support more than hold them.

-- Seamus

They are almost as mobile as Belles! Sadly, since Belles are literally /just/ mobile enough, I don't see that as a good thing. They are cheap and potentially terrifying with aSeamus, however. They are a good shock-troop minion.

-- Kirai

They aren't spirits. Move along.

Chiaki, the Niece -- 5ss

A Support Model, through and through. Chiaki supports movement (with a ram!, heals, strips status effects, and has the bizarre ability to remove the undead characteristic either in singles or as a large aura. She does some more things for Yan Lo. She also has one of the most useful 1 actions in the current meta: a :pulse8 slow on enemy non-living models with absolutely no resist. That said, and this is important, she has below-average defenses even for her point value and absolutely no special defensive tricks beyond (effectively) Regeneration 1 and Harmless.

This means she pretty much will be singled out and killed. Yan Lo is the only master that can bring her back. This means she's useful as bait, for the initial push, and for laying down her 1-action slow. You have to keep her out of harm's way.

I will also say from experience, managing the realities of "push models directly away" is definitely the skill portion of using Chiaki. As a final note, she allows Masters other than Yan Lo to take advantage of the relic abilities of the other ancestors.

-- Nicodem

She fixes movement issues for the low, low cost of 5ss. If you were picking up Dead Rider to do that before, you have to seriously consider using her instead. Now, Dead Rider also brings a hit-and-run and heavy combat abilities on top of that, so you have to asses if what else Chiaki brings to the table and that 5ss are worth it over Dead Rider. In a lot of cases, I think that answer is going to be yes.

-- McMourning

I've never had mobility issues with McMourning. The aura slow, however, can help McMourning actually survive whatever he doesn't kill on his initial charge.

-- Seamus

Believe it or not, I think we have a winner. Seamus suffers from having "barely enough" movement. Chiaki pushes that movement from "barely enough" to phenominal. More importantly, Seamus' aura is 8". This means Chiaki can push the Belles ~6" forward, and they'll still be in Belles of the Ball range, meaning they have a hypothetical turn 1 interact range of ~13". A Dead Doxxy can actually use her 0 action with a Ca of 8 and range of 12 to hit anyone who moves forward that you can see, and can otherwise have an interact range of up to 14". This is, however, sad news for Molly. Chiaki fills every role you really want from her, but cheaper. The only big thing to note is that Seamus usually has enough in the range of support, don't forget the punch.

-- Kirai

You know, I was just thinking my Kirai crew didn't have enough movement tricks... nah. Maybe if you know you're up against a non-living crew and you need the slow.

Izamu, the Armor -- 10ss

The heralded replacement for the Dead Rider! ... Except not really. Izamu and Dead Rider certainly compete for the same soulstones on a list, but they compete for different reasons. The Dead Rider has mobility, survives through hit-and-run tactics, and controls the position of models on the board. Izamu is a tank.

Seriously don't think of it is a possessed suit of armor, think of it as a possessed artillery shell. With object 2, I2I, an offensive line worthy of a master, Riptose, and neigh immunity to combat triggers, this model is capable of carving a swath through entire crews. It's weakness? It's slow. 4wk/6cg and no movement shennanigans means its going to spend most of its time getting to a place and not much time actually being effective. That is, unless it has support from another model (like, say, Chiaki, Toshiro, or Yan Lo's totem) to help with that. I actually see Izamu being used primarily with his own Master, although there is something to be said for Dead Rider + Izamu + Chiaki and their ability to hypothetically get Izamu in the middle of the enemy's crew turn 1. Of course, with his reach and difficulty to kill, he also makes a good objective squatter.

-- Nicodem

I actually don't see Izamu being used with Nicodem that much outside slaughter. Nicodem benefits from larger numbers of minions, and he usually has to use all the movement tricks on himself. The +2 CB / Df is, of course, fantastic.

-- McMourning

The aformentioned trick with Dead Rider + Izamu + Chiaki is best used with Yan Lo or McMourning, for what that's worth. To be honest, I think you're better served using McMourning himself for carving through the enemy and summoned Flesh Constructs / Rogue Necromancies to serve Izamu's purpose.

-- Seamus

So, you know how Seamus' big weakness is not enough punch? Izamu is a possible answer. I could very well see Chiaki, Izamu, and 3 Belles (maybe replace one with Sybelle/Doxy) doing very, very well in an aSeamus crew.

-- Kirai

If she can make it spirit and swirl it around, it makes for some excellent punch. It also means that it takes 7 damage to inflict 2 wounds on the thing. I see it as an great, if situational addition to a Kirai crew.

Toshiro, the Daimyo -- 8ss

Oh man this model... you can build an entire crew around this model, with the master supplementing it. It offers positive flips to combat near it, it summons off of conflict counters whenever an allied undead model inflicts damage in melee (or if a Punk Zombie / Ashigaru die), and he has quite possibly the best movement trick ressurectionists get. It's basically Fresh Meat without the casting flip or a resist flip. That said, his combat line is mediocre for his point cost, his defense line is only average, and HtW2 means he suffers from "Red-Joker-itis."

Ultimately, he's a baby Nicodem that tries to have some combat ability in place of Rigor Mortis. He can single-handedly solve a crew's mobility problems, and when combined with Chiaki you can preserve his Fresh Meat equivalent and his buff aura beyond his own death.

-- Nicodem

I'm... not sure. I want to hold off on this until I can actually play. In theory, he combines very well with aNico and helps the crew actually keep up with others well, but there is so much overlap between what he and Nicodem do I'm not sure if its redundant.

-- McMourning

Oh how I wish McMourning could generate conflict tokens! That would make this a match made in heaven. Unfortunately, he can't, and his Crew doesn't have much in the way of mobility issues.

-- Seamus

Eeeeeeeh. Think about how often an undead model (which aSeamus is not) damages stuff in melee. That is a measure of how useful Toshiro is. He has movement tricks that help Belles, but you can spend 3ss less and get Chiaki instead (you won't need both). You basically take him over Chiaki if you want the +Twist to combat and the summoning.

-- Kirai

Her models aren't dead enough to benefit from Toshiro and she really doesn't need more movement tricks. Move along.

Yin, the Penangalan -- 8ss

I didn't like Yin at first, but he's grown on me. The big thing with Yin is that she is neigh unkillable. All attack flips against her have a minus twist, and she has an above-average stat-line across the board. That said, she's an 8ss model with no extra actions...

Still, she might be worth it. Her primary purpose seems to be as a source of Anathema Terrifying, WP-Debuffing, and as a wicked (per the talent) tarpit. Unless I'm charging, I can't imagine using her melee weapon over Constrict. More testing is required.

-- Nicodem

Eh... it's not that Yin is bad for Nicodem, it's that Nicodem has better options. Ultimately, Yin burns cards and debuffs WP, which is great for Rigor Mortis, but Nico rarely has problems getting that off anyways.

-- McMourning

For me, it's a choice between Yin and 2 The Drowned. It comes close, but I think The Drowned win it.

-- Seamus

Here's where the money is at. aSeamus helps compound the terrifying issue, and seamus in general is well-served by Yin's WP debuffs. I could even see, in the beginning, having Yin paired with an attached Grave Spirit that focus-casts Face of Death.

-- Molly

Surprise! She's a Horror, which means Molly can hire her. I definately see using her in 35ss lists. In 25ss she starts competing with the Rogue Necromancy. Yin is definitely more survivable than the RN, but the RN gives a gun and quite a bit of punch. I'm really not sure which is better in what situations.

That's all, folks!

[DeleteAccount]

You forgot to comment Yin for Kirai. From your analysis it sort of seems that the pieces are mostly for Yan Lo since with other masters you mostly don't seem to compelled about them.

I mean, toshiro may not be "optimum" with Kirai, but on the other hand, aside from the speed boost from his 0 ability, he also brings that + to melee combat which is outright HUGE for anything, and Kirai's list lives from it's melee. Not saying he's an autoinclude either, but he is an interesting piece to have a look at.

Ashigaru seems like can be a good 4 point model in any force, hell, if I use a crooked man or a belle with most of my masters, seems like the ashigaru is there in utility.

As for Chiaki, which seems your most recommended, I thought there was a fixed dificulty def roll to suffer to slow, not that it was automatic. Also, according to Ratty, she helps speed up Nicodem's crew, but not Nicodem himself, so depends on what you want for her. But a big thing I see missing in the analysis is how outright huge removing effects is, like Ratty stated in another thread, removing slow from summoned models. Removing paralized or insignificant or burning counters or brilliance and so on. And that little heal of hers, if played well, can have Seamus with a fake regen 1 getting above the hard to kill threshold or can make Kirai keep herself a bit in better health thanks to that extra live every turn, I've had situations where a single wd stopped me from getting stuff done.

As for Izamu, he is like you said a huge tank and beatstick and with the tomb spirit becomes hell to deal with. He seems to me like a good choice any time you want a big hitter in your list and believe durability will play a part, in the same way Dead Rider and Bete Noir feel like good choices when you will need mobility or will be facing livingish models. Maybe the one you have to think most about including, but one that any master can capitalize on.

Also, Nicodem should love him more than the dead rider simply because he drops 3 corpse counters instead of 1, so that is pretty big right there.

[Ausplosions]

Chiaki can not push Nicodem.

[Clement]

Chiaki can not push Nicodem.

Did we ever get a RM to comment on that whole discussion? As I recall it got kind of heated/inconclusive as to if Nico's ability to be undead would qualify him for Chiaki's push.

[DeleteAccount]

Did we ever get a RM to comment on that whole discussion? As I recall it got kind of heated/inconclusive as to if Nico's ability to be undead would qualify him for Chiaki's push.

Here Ratty says no push for Nico

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?34692-Compiled-Resurrectionis-Storm-of-Shadows-info/page2

So I'd stick with that.

[Clement]

Here Ratty says no push for Nico

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?34692-Compiled-Resurrectionis-Storm-of-Shadows-info/page2

So I'd stick with that.

Well that makes me sad... oh well.

[DeleteAccount]

Anyway, SoulG, what have been your experiences playing Yan Lo? Does the tree system seem to work well or does it feel he starts reaching powerhouse status late in the game? Have you used cache for Chi and picking what?

[SoulG]

I posted this before that ruling on Chiaki! Although in retrospect, with the wording, I'm not surprised. It's obvious, looking back in it, but hindsight is 20/20. I also recommend Chiaki so much because she's so amazingly cost-effective at 5ss.

The other models were recommended. Ashigaru are generally good in most situations, they're our first generally buff, cheapish, front-line model. Izamu can wade through entire crews, but without some movement trick to get him where he needs to be (usually some combination of Soul porter, Toshiro, Chiaki, Dead Rider) he will get left to the wayside. Toshiro is flat-amazing, but I'm not too sure he's worth it with how Kirai plays. Sure, he can be moved into position to provide flips but... that's it. And if you take Toshiro you really want Chiaki, who is nerely useless to Kirai, because Toshiro dies almost every game. It just doesn't work out in my mind. The issue is honestly how fragile he is. I've actually managed to try out Yin, and he's been growing on me. He's almost pure card-manipulation / tarpit / tank / wp debuff. While he is good at what he does, I'm not sure what he does is worth 8ss in every crew. I still think his premier combination is aSeamus, but I haven't tried it yet.

Yan Lo plays very well. He reminds me as some strange hybrid between Nicodem and Von Schill. Every time I've played him, I've started with 3 stones being put into Chi, and I've never regretted it. Depending on the exact strategy, I've done Path of Spirit for the mobility and Path of Ash for the defense. Path of Bone is almost always my second pick, since I feel he's too fragile for direct melee confrontation (and he has Izamu for that anyways). In the beginning, you play railgun by keeping him near ancestors (Chiaki and Toshiro are favorites with this) and blasting Weight of the Ages. If you ever max out Bone... well... honestly, just murder their whole crew.

The Paths, while phenomenal, are difficult to build up unless you kill your own models. Yan Lo's inability to bring an ancestor he didn't start with prevents him from doing an effective dog list (I mean, you can, but the 21-24 SS to max path of Bone and Ash is just... not worth it). One thing of note (that is really hard to get used to) is that while your models are big, expensive, elite, and unique they are ultimately expendable. I've played an all-ancestor list at 35 felt nothing when Toshiro was assassinated and Yin died. To date, I have not lost Chiaki, which I attribute to luck and good positioning.