Dreamer / LCB reactivate

[calgary_cat]

If Kirai gives the dreamer reactivate in a brawl does that also give LCB another activation as well? I've been searching around all morning and haven't found an answer, thanks in advance.

[Cunning]

The OP was:

Not:

I have read in to the OP that The Dreamer gains reactivate and then LCB is "brought into play".

I have argued that although it leads to absurd results, the Rules are clear that LCB would gain another activation in the OP scenario. The most compelling counter argument is that there is an faq post and a thread post from a Rules Marshall that say otherwise.

The alleged "ninja" is a request for clarification on edicts declared by Rules Marshals. This is relevant because if the word of a rules marshal is nota proper "Rule", then LCB still technically activates (pursuant to the current iteration of the rules) in the OP scenario.

I honestly cant see the connection between giving the Dreamer reactivate and being able to activate Chompy every time he activates. As I read it, the question was about a confusion over how One Master works. i.e. If they are one master, if one gets reactivate, then the other does too.

If the question was about whether Chompy can activate everytime he unburies then I would have thought that it what the OP would have explicitly asked. Especially as it is a situation that would occur a lot more often the the situation posited in the OP. For instance the dreamer and Chompy both take their activation leaving the dreamer on the table then the Dreamer is killed popping out Chompy.

Hence why some of us believe your question is separate to the OP's question.

[schristofersen]

The alleged "ninja" is a request for clarification on edicts declared by Rules Marshals. This is relevant because if the word of a rules marshal is nota proper "Rule", then LCB still technically activates (pursuant to the current iteration of the rules) in the OP scenario. Unless, of course, the players have already agreed to adopt alternative rules.

In addition to what CunningStunt has said i'd like to add that while you are free to play the game however you like the rulings of the Rules Marshals are proper rules. You don't get to say otherwise any more than someone at a 40k tournament gets to say that FAQ are not official rulings. The protocol for rulings is established by Wyrd. They get to do that as a game company. You as a community member get to have input into the general discussion about rules. Its a bit odd that you have stated there is not a central location for rulings as there clearly is and you have found it here on the boards.

[WingerWanger]

I believe OP was broad enough to encompass the "immediately activate" question. The Original Poster, left a "Thanks" on my post addressing the "immediately activates" element of that question.

Ironically, the debate over whether this thread has been ninja'd is "ninja'ing" the thread.

I have no intention other than to provide my good faith perspective that the rules do not adequately address the OPs scenario (because it leads to the crazy results mentioned in CunningStunt's last post). The first response to this thread suggested this was simply a cut and dry question. It is not.

I love this game too, which is why I care enough to poke holes in the Rules.

Wyrd, and the community, can either accept this perspective as feedback on the Rules and work together to improve them or it can dismiss this perspective. It appears we are leaning more towards the "dismiss" end of the spectrum. The democratic elements of a forum makes this a perfectly legitimate (if not disappointing) option.

[Cunning]

The problem now is more about whether the Rules Marshalls' word is law.

If it is then this issue was resolved a while back.

If it isn't then this is a legitimate issue.

While I am not aware of anything explicitly stating that this is the case, the fact that they are called Rules Marshalls and I believe that all rules marshalls are (or at least when they have made rulings, were) employees of Wyrd I think it is a safe assumption that this is the case.

If you do not recognise their authority then short of Nathan or Eric dropping in to state it explicitly, there's not much that can be done to convince you of it.

[-Archangel-]

I and my gaming group are new to Malifaux. And I took the dreamer as my master because he looked cool and other factions had been taken already. Another took Kirai as his master, so this thread was very interesting to me.

Boy was I in for a load of headache trying to figure out how the Dreamer and LCB works. Honestly, I still don't get it. Though the Dreamer is still a lot of fun to play, as is the game, there are so many many things the break the Rules that it's really hard to wrap my head around it. Now more has been added with brilliance, etc. So with that all in mind I have this to say...

1: Thank you Rules Marshals and Wyrd employees for putting up with this. In the end it's just a game and some players can be petty about it. You take it all in stride and I appreciate that. Thank you for answering our questions to the best of your ability. And making rules clearer when we don't get it.

2: I understand that reactivate allows a model to have another ativation right (whole new set of AP)? Does Dreamer/ LCB then count as 1 model because of One Master? AKA, if the Dreamer gets a whole new set of AP between him and LCB, if he burries and LCB unburries it's supposed to give LCB the remaining AP to use. Why wouldn't he be able to use them? Is it because of the burry/ unburry eratta? If so, that's fine, just want to know. But it would seeem to me that the one master would supercede the eratta because it was reactivated. AKA, dreamer is already burried/ unburried in this scenario so he gets another set of AP because of reactivate. It's not like the Dreamer doesn't get to do anything because he was already burried/ unburried, so why not LCB because of 1 master? Again this is ONLY in the case of reactivate. I agree with the rules as they are, for slingshot purposes.

2b: A side question then, say the dreamer used all his AP as the dreamer NEVER burying and becoming LCB on his original turn, then gets reactivated. Wouldn't he be able to continue and bury becoming LCB then and use up other AP?

3: How does stuff like poison or other ongoing effects work work then? Say LCB gets poisoned and The Dreamer comes into play, does it transfer to The Dreamer? If not does LCB get his HP burned away as he's burried? Or does it put the poison on "pause" and go back into effect when he unburries next?

Gotta say, I appreciate the ending the slingshot effect as that was broken, but in doing so, it seems to have opened up a whole 'nother can of worms.

Thanks again!

-Archangel-

Edited September 5, 2012 by -Archangel-
Didn't put in a comma.

[Adran]

The Rule One master does not transfer effects from 1 model to the other.

If you have activated the Dreamer, He recieves 2 AP. For arguements sake, lets say he walked twice. He gets re activate. He generates another 2 AP. He is still subject to the rule that between him and Lord Chompy bits they can only spend 3 AP, so he can walk once, but then has to pass on his remainign activation point.

If Lord Chompybits was now brought out he would generate 2 general AP and a melee master.

Becase the Dreamer has already spent 3 AP, he can't spend his two general AP. He can use melee master for a melee strike.

THis has nothign to do with the bury errata.

Poison happens to a model when it activates. If Chompy is poisoned, that won't pass onto the dreamer, and if Chompy isn't unburied, he wont activate, and so wont take poison damage.

The Bury errata says if there is an effect on a buried model that ends at a certain time, then it will still end at that time even if the model is buried.

Hope that helps. The dreamer can be very tricky to get your head around

[-Archangel-]

If you have activated the Dreamer, He recieves 2 AP. For arguements sake, lets say he walked twice. He gets re activate. He generates another 2 AP. He is still subject to the rule that between him and Lord Chompy bits they can only spend 3 AP, so he can walk once, but then has to pass on his remainign activation point.

If Lord Chompybits was now brought out he would generate 2 general AP and a melee master.

Becase the Dreamer has already spent 3 AP, he can't spend his two general AP. He can use melee master for a melee strike.

Thanks for the quick response Adran. That was especially helpful in figuring out the effects.

However, I am still a bit foggy on the reactivate for the Dreamer, so lets break it down a little further...

So on The Dreamer's original turn he burns all his AP doing a 0 Action "I Can Fly" moves 2x going a whopping 14 inches, then uses an +1 Instinctual 0 Action to use "Inflict Dreams", Just so that he uses everything he can and it ends his turn WITHOUT bringing in LCB.

Now he gets reactivate, but lo and behold he's near his intended target/ reason for burning his movement. Now he has a whole new set of 2 AP to use right? So he could Use his 0 Action to say use "Unhinge" then uses his +1 Instinctual to use another 0 action "Nightmare Friend" to bring in LCB. That would leave LCB with 2 AP and his +1 "Melee Expert" to use as he saw fit right?

-Archangel-

[WingerWanger]

Further, per the core rules, each model gets 2 general action points per activation, but Dreamer and LCB abilities limit them to 3 general action points between them per turn (not counting pass actions). So if Dreamer gets Reactivate he would activate a second time but wouldn't get any general action points to start unless you hadn't already reached the 3-per-turn limit.

So you could:

Dreamer activates with 2 general ap, a (0), and +1 Instinctual

Dreamer gains Reactivate somehow

Dreamer activates with 1 general ap, a (0), and +1 Instinctual

LCB Activates with 0 general ap, a (0), and +1 Melee Expert

or

Dreamer activates with 2 general ap, a (0), and +1 Instinctual

LCB Activates with 1 general ap, a (0), and +1 Melee Expert

Dreamer gains Reactivate somehow

Dreamer activates with 0 general ap, a (0), and +1 Instinctual

or some variation of the above.

To extrapolate from Mach_5's correct statement, in your scenario, Angle,

Dreamer activates with 2 general ap, a (0) and +1 instinctual

- uses 2 general ap, a (0) and his +1 instinctual

- gain's reactivate

Dreamer reactivates with 1 general ap, a (0) and +1 instinctual

If you were to use a (0) to bring out LCB,

LCB activates with 1 general ap, a (0) and +1 melee expert

[-Archangel-]

Perfect! What I missed out on was reactivate only gives 1 AP.

Like I said, I'm new. So thanks for all your patience and help!

OK now back to the main thread with this question...

Say the Dreamer and LCB use up all their initial AP where Dreamer brings in LCB and he finishes with a trigger "All Done" placing the Dreamer back on the table. Obvioulsy with the eratta even if he had any remaining things to do, The Dreamer can't so end of turn. NOW The Dreamer gets reactivate. Can he use his (0) ap and +1 Instinctual using one of those for "Nightmare Friend" to bring in LCB who would then have 1 AP +1 Melee Expert to use because of 1 master? Or is LCB out of luck because he was already burried (AKA only Dremer gets to use up AP, sorry Chompy)?

-Archangel-

[Dracomax]

I'm fairly sure that reactivate gives a new activation, with all the general AP that provides.(normally 2 general AP and all the special AP the card has) the problem is that regardless of whether reactivated or not, Dreamer and LCB have One master, which specifies that they get a maximum of 3 general AP per Round, which would override the general rule of 2 general AP per activation. I am, of course, basing this on the wording posted earlier in the thread, not having the book or card in front of me.

[Cunning]

The thing to bear in mind is that only the Dreamer is gaining reactivate. Chompy doesn't so he can only activate once that turn.

[WingerWanger]

Dracomax is right. Reactivate gives you a full new activation (ordinarily complete with a new batch of general AP). However the specific rule on The Dreamer/LCB model cards restrict their total AP to three per turn.

In your new scenario:

LCB ends his activation after both the Dreamer and LCB have used 3 general AP, LCB is buried and the Dreamer is brought into play. I am arguing the rules are quite clear that The Dreamer automatically activates again (because he "activates immediately"). But don't play this way because:

1) it's very broken; and

2) the community is very much in support of an alternative rule that would mean that the model does not "activate immediately" if it has already activated this turn.

So - going by the way you should play:

LCB's activation ends when he is buried (after all 3 AP have been used).

- play continues as normal until The Dreamer gains Reactivate.

The Dreamer will eventually activate and get:

- a (0) action and +1 inspiration (because it has already used up all of its AP this turn)

- The Dreamer uses Nightmare Friend ( ignore the "activates immediately" text on his model card.)

The Dreamer's activation ends after you bury him. LCB does not get another activation. The next model in line activates.

You and your friends should agree, in advance of any games, to a house rule on LCB's "activates immediately" text. The rule should be something to the effect of: ... activates immediately only if it has not already activated this turn.

Edited September 5, 2012 by WingerWanger

[CRC]

2) the community is very much in support of an alternative rule that would mean that the model does not "activate immediately" if it has already activated this turn.

You're confusing "the community" with "the people who wrote the rules and who engage with the community".

However, because "the people who wrote the rules" isn't a high enough authority for you, I'll quote the FAQ:

http://www.malifaux.com/FAQ.php" data-cite="\"

http://www.malifaux.com/FAQ.php

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Q. I have an Ability that says "Target friendly Construct within 6" of this model activates after this model’s activation ends", can I use this on a model that has already activated?

A. Linked In and other abilities that allow you to activate a model after finishing a model’s activation can only be used on models that haven't activated or are waiting to Reactivate.

[Ratty]

Q. I have an Ability that says "Target friendly Construct within 6" of this model activates after this model’s activation ends", can I use this on a model that has already activated?

A. Linked In and other abilities that allow you to activate a model after finishing a model’s activation can only be used on models that haven't activated or are waiting to Reactivate.

This is the important FAQ item, things that say you can Activate after or Activate Immediately ONLY work if the model has an Activation to use.

Now giving Reactivate to the Dreamer does not give it to LCB and vice versa.

Also Reactivate on the Dreamer or LCB is not actually very good as they can not spend more than 3 General AP in a turn. SO if you activate the Dreamer and LCB and use 3 General AP between them and then give one of them Reactivate, they would only get a (0) Action and Specific AP. There are probably better things to use it on.

---------- Post added at 08:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:34 PM ----------

On the Rules Marshal thing, at the moment me and Keltheos are the two acting Rules Marshals on the board, we manage the FAQ and Erratas and we are really the final court of appeal.

[WingerWanger]

You're confusing "the community" with "the people who wrote the rules and who engage with the community".

However, because "the people who wrote the rules" isn't a high enough authority for you, I'll quote the FAQ:

Needless hostility... In any event that faq quote was already noted. If it pleases you, I amend my earlier post to read:

"2) The people who wrote the rules are very much in favour of an alternative rule which would mean that the model does not "activate immediately" if it has already activated this turn. "

---------- Post added at 01:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:44 PM ----------

On the Rules Marshal thing, at the moment me and Keltheos are the two acting Rules Marshals on the board, we manage the FAQ and Erratas and we are really the final court of appeal.

Ratty, why not issue an Errata, amending the rule text on LCB's model card?

[Ratty]

Ratty, why not issue an Errata, amending the rule text on LCB's model card?

Because this is a standard Ruling across the board for what the phrase Activate Immediately means, not an individual model Errata.

[Korrosion]

On the Rules Marshal thing, at the moment me and Keltheos are the two acting Rules Marshals on the board, we manage the FAQ and Erratas and we are really the final court of appeal.

So what kinds of beer/cake will work best as bribes for you two?:Confused_Puppet: How do I deliver them :Confused_Puppet: :-)

[Adran]

I am arguing the rules are quite clear that The Dreamer automatically activates again (because he "activates immediately"). But don't play this way because:

1) it's very broken; and

2) the community is very much in support of an alternative rule that would mean that the model does not "activate immediately" if it has already activated this turn.

Firstly, I think this has got down to a non issue and semantics, but I'm still here typing.

Lets actually look at the rules.

Page 31 of the rules manual tells us that a model can only activate once a round unless the rules tell us otherwise. We are all agreed here.

Right, I've now found an ability which says I activate immeadeatly. Hmm, what does this mean. I know, lets look at the rule book.

It is covered on page 31. It tells us that activate immedeatly means that the target model will activate as soon as the current model has completed its activation.

There is no Card>rulebok, as the rule on the card is covered in the rule book.

It still hasn't given us permission. So other than activating outside the normal alternating sequence it hasn't given any extra rules or bonus.

So the rules as written (and they are all on the same page of the rule book) don't give us permission to activate a second time.

There is no need for an errata.

And, because this issue isn't the most straight forward, and can require close reading of the rule book to realise it doesn't give you a second activation, the question is frequently asked, and answered in the frequently asked question.