Usefulness of Avatars

[D_acolyte]

I am not a new player just a bit reluctant on the use of avatars, people do not tend to play them where I am and when they do the avatars look to be a big letdown.

How many player actual use the avatars, not own but use? How have they worked for you? Also has there been anyone who used them at the gen con tournaments?

[NeuroFire]

It really depends. I'm a pretty big fan of how Sonnia's avatar plays. Perdita's avatar can be a bit more frustrating; I don't think what she loses is actually made up for by what she gains.

[poulpox]

The only avatar I've used so far is aMarcus and I intentionally used it more than needed to try and get the feel of it; although I did manage at (rare) times to pull a nice combo (soulstoned roar + smell fear), my conclusion is that it isn't really worth bothering as the playstyle only changes so little: as an assault model it is too weak and his attacks are too clunky/card consuming to work properly, nothing normal Marcus could not do anyway; as support model on paper aMarcus is nice but by the time he shows up (turn 4 usually not to waste 2 APs on turn 3) usually fighty minions are a little scattered or dead, plus if you don't have the suits needed in your hands he just cannot do anything. I keep on using him anyway just coz I bought it and still hope to make it work some day, but so far I have been less than impressed by the results, its mechanics are just not right I think. Also there are too few crews aMarcus is worth taking against (mainly living crews and maybe undead) which doesn't help using him often.

Other avatars seem fun though!

[Gruesome]

I am biased as a rezzer.

The avatars for Seamus, Nicodem and McMourning are auto-include for me now.

I am not saying that I feel that you MUST manifest(well, Seamus, maybe), but I am hard-pressed for those masters to think of where 2 points might be better spent in "bang for the buck" value and the ability to change the game up if needed.

I am also becoming more excited about Kirai's avatar as I consider fielding her a bit this year. (She does not see much play from me for my own reasons)

My son LOVES Sonnia's avatar, but I cannot speak to the other Guild avatars as we do not own them.

[Clousseau]

Yes, aSonnia is great, but not an autotake (depends on strategy, etc.). aPerdita has been taken once, so too early to tell and I've not tried aLadyJ or aViks yet.

Anyway, they don't seem to have unbalanced the game, which is positive.

[Bucket Monkey]

I use aJustice fairly often, it does depend on the scheme and crew composition but I can always find a use for her except in slaughter and contain power.

I've taken aPerdita once but she needs some more play time. Sonnia ive taken about half the time.

[D_acolyte]

I do not worry about avatars unbalanced the game, more on are they really useful or competitive. I have notice that some avatars are a shift to a new way of playing like Ramos and others just increase how they played before. I want to know is this shift useful and how so, especially because I seen it not work a lot; either the avatar comes out to late or is ineffective when it does. There is only so much reading tactics will help with this, after all I find pull my finger to miss some good combos or decontext the use to limit the understanding.

Gruesome why is aMcMourning an auto include? My father only plays McMourning and does not have the avatar yet and his birthday is next month.

[Barbagianni]

I've seen in action a couple of avatars and I have mixed feelings about them.

Ramos mostly gets movement boosts that are actually nice for objectiva grabbing, not to mention that if he doesn't die in a couple of strikes he tends to sit on piles of scrap counters (to summon constructs to get objectives done).

Zoraida can be really dangerous...if she can see you. If you can outmanouver her you can keep her at bay.

Lilith is indeed a big problem when she manifests, but she's a bit forest-dependant, and placement is where the trick lies.

I play the viks, but their avatar did not strike me too much. Same defenses (more or less none, saving soulstones), huge combat boost, great mobility but limitations that put too much strain on my brain(new player).

[Gruesome]

Gruesome why is aMcMourning an auto include? My father only plays McMourning and does not have the avatar yet and his birthday is next month.

For me, he is an auto-include because he adds actions on the turn he manifests as well as making base McMourning even scarier in some respects.

Basically, if I am thinking about manifesting him, I look at what it would take to hold off on McMournings activation for later in the round, letting others go first so that I can drop a monster on their head that they have no time to react to.

The manifested McMourning also has the creeping doom, or whatever its called, that just wrecks anyone he decides to focus.

What it comes down to for me is that for the potential and even just the THREAT of it, I cannot spend 2 soulstones better than to include his avatar.

[Dumb Luck]

If I'm taking pork flavoured Gremlins, the very first two stones spent are on ASomer. Swamp Gas summoning Piglets is just that good.

[edboogie]

As an arcanist player, I have uses for them. I love Rasputina's avatar. She spends the early turns distributing damage and protecting herself and her team, and then transforms into a hard to damgae beatstick that punishes you for engaging with her later in the game. Colette makes her game of cat and mouse even more difficult to deal with, so you spend the early turns stealing all the VP on the table and the late turns with the avatar dancing, dodging, and dominating the board... both are very worth the 2SS cost in my opinion.

[Undisclosed]

If i don't need the mobility of Zoraida, and would rather have the raw casting power with Pins and Needles then i take the Avatar. It's a nice choice to have, and makes my master useful in a lot more situations.

[Forar]

I have yet to pick up or face an Avatar (most of my crew has been playing for 1 year to 6 months or so), but I now there an aRasputina in our midst (no table time yet) that one of the other guys picked up a while back.

From what I've read (in the book, the forums and the wiki/tactica), I can't see myself using Hoffman's, I agree that Perdita's is questionable (I admit, paired on attacks and gaining flight isn't without appeal, but yes, those aren't gained without cost), and I have yet to even field LJ (she's more the focus of one of our other players, and I don't want to overlap too heavily into her territory). aSonnia, however, seems to have mostly good things said about her, so I imagine I'll end up with that one eventually.

I agree that it's good they're not auto-includes. Ideally there'd be a faction matchup, crew build, strategy or something where they were more likely to do good than not (to justify that cost and the efforts one might have to go to in order to manifest at a good time), but some of them just seem so situational I'm not willing to put down cash for something to build, paint, and lug around but rarely find a use for.

[JisaacT]

I have Seamus's avatar and I find it very useful. I love bring it to the table. And he is pretty big and awesome. I do not consider it an auto include with him. It depends on which faction I am pitched up against. It also depends on the strats and scemes. I've noticed his avatar is especially useful for holding a position on the board and terrify everything.

Like I said depends on strats and scemes but I enjoy taking it against the guild the arcanists and sometimes the outcasts (every once in awhile)

[NeuroFire]

I agree that Perdita's is questionable (I admit, paired on attacks and gaining flight isn't without appeal)

That was a lot of the appeal to me, as well. That and her card manipulation. But the severe drop in her defense makes the paired pistol almost a liability, because I often don't want to be in anyone's attack radius, but to shoot I pretty much have to be. (Yeah, her range is big, I know, but it's not big enough to keep her safe.) And her damage takes a hit because she loses Critical Strike. Bite and Bullets looks great on paper, but I have yet to make it happen, since I have to make a Diving Attack for it to work. Maybe on a board with a lot of elevated terrain for her to attack from it would happen more. But then when she does attack, she's in melee, and she just won't last overly long there. (It's a real shame she doesn't gain Black Blood along with the Neverborn characteristic, I think it would make her more viable in combat.)

Going from being one of the highest defense masters in the game with one of the most useful spells in the game (Obey) and one of the best long-range damage profiles... it's just weak tea to be able to fly. It barely makes her more mobile, as her movement doesn't change, and most of her new tricks are quite difficult to pull off. The only thing she does reliably is build a great hand, which is nice but not something I usually want to trade standard Perdita for; she's already got Hero's Gamble if I really hate my hand. It's a shame, because when I read her avatar I kept thinking how awesome it could be, and she was the first one I got. In practice, though, manifesting is super situational. Strategy, terrain, and opposing faction all play a big role in whether aPerdita is a good move or a guaranteed dead master. Like I said, I just haven't felt like what she gains makes up for what she loses.

Now aSonnia, I feel is balanced. She actually gets a little bump in Df, as well as her potentially massive healing ability, making up for the loss of the sword that can heal her one wound per hit. Also lost with the sword is her Disassemble trigger, but her new fiery Salamander ignores Armor. She loses Confiscate Lore, but gains Ca 8 withAdaptive Mind so she doesn't really need it. Pyre is a so much better spell than Flame Wall it's kind of mind-boggling. She loses all the Blasts, but gains a damage Pulse. Her counterspell actually gets even better, because now it's inflicting damage. And she keeps Violation. So I guess what I'm saying is, yeah, you should get her. Plus the model is just... so pretty.

Edited August 19, 2012 by NeuroFire

[Blog]

aSeamus and aMcmourning go into EVERY list I make for them. Both are extremely useful and fun to play. Especially Sim 29. He wrecks everything.

[rancor709]

I love the resser avatars, Anico and aseamus are creeping more and more into my lists. I wouldn't call them auto-includes but with Seamus its hard not to want to take the hulk! And Crazy Zombie King is just brutal, as my opponents have been calling his avatar the one man zombie Apocalypse its hard not to take him. From a purely competitive angle Nicodems avatar offers him some extreme mobility and adds to his survivabilty in melee. Seamus is all about being a scary son of a gun, making things run and then smashing them wiht your wicked fists is fun, and even if they don't run there burning high cards to do actions. and then your smashing them in your activation. Plus its the hulk, and that is just fun. Amcmourning I have the least experience with but, I can't think of why you wouldn't spend 2 stones for the potential killing power that sim 29 gives you.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I find regular McMorning is far more deadly than the pair of them, and he heals easier as well. That said it's hard to overlook the - twist aura that he puts up, and I don't mind losing summoning as I rarely use that anyway. I do find that aMcMorning is very much a deadly weight in the game. He can be moderately difficult to shift, and you have to kill him and Sim29 if they are camped out on top of something you want, or you want to keep from your opponent. McMorning trades in his speed however, as he NEVER wants to get very far from Sim29 when it he manifests. On the plus side he is a master that almost always triggers both his conditions to manifest, so it costs you less actions than aSeamus and aNico usually.

[biffa]

Im still in two minds on purchasing the collette avatar, whats the pros and cons to help make up my mind?

[Rameses]

Im still in two minds on purchasing the collette avatar, whats the pros and cons to help make up my mind?

She loses the ability to summon Doves. That's all I can tell you off the top of my head without running upstairs and getting her card or the Twisting Fates book.

[GTDemon777]

the quantity of players who use avatars is entirely reliant of the master they use. Some are great, some need to have its use heavily thought about. For example, ever since book 3 came out, ive never seen a ramos player without his avatar. I am not saying its a must, but its pretty dam handy to have since they take the good parts of a master and improve it greatly. Someone like Lady J's however kinda changes their playstyle decently. I believe she goes from smashing-face to straight up crew buffing. Some, mostly the more mage like, simply get all melee smashy as a defensive mechanism.

[easternheretic]

I've used Zorida and Leveticus avatars quite a bit, but for different reasons.

Zorida's avatar trades in her speed and survivability for a direct damage output increase.

She loses some of her old abilities and spells and gains in others.

The overall play style is almost the same, with a shift from a pure control and manipulation play style to one that add the option of direct damage output.

The biggest reason to use the avatar is for the triggers that her spells have (Obey the same model again? Yes please! Stack my control hand with more cards? Yes please!), and the ability to allow a minion to use her Bayou 2 card ability.

Overall, I feel that the avatar can be used in all strategies. Some become easier, but others, more difficult to achieve. Overall, the changes are easily handled. I feel the avatar is fun to use, and a slight improvement on normal Zorida.

If i intend to play a fun game, I will not hesitate to take her avatar. If it was a competitive game like a tourney, I would seriously consider taking the avatar as well.

Leveticus's avatar on the other hand, I use purely for fluff and for a challenge. I started using Leve purely for the chance to use all 4 riders, and was pleased that his avatar ties in with this theme.

In a fun game, I will consider taking the avatar. In a competitive game, he is unfortunately left in my carry bag.

The reason behind this is because the old man does not perform as well in avatar form when compared to his normal mode for a number of reasons.

In terms of raw power, the avatar take a hit in pure hitting power. He loses his iconic and hard hitting half plus on wd spell (Unnatual wasting), and the sacrfice a 2 wd model spell (Entropic transformation).

This changes his entire play style when he manifests. This however is acceptable if not because of the main reason I feel his avatar is sub par.

He still has his, I wd myself 1 and wd you for 3 spell (Necrotic unmaking), and his finger of death (0/1/12) dmg profile. He gains a number of usefull abilities and spells.

In fact, taken solely on the basis of the abilities of his avatar alone, his avatar is actually ok. Where it all falls apart, is that he needs riders to be in his list, and riders are expensive SS models and quite squishy to boot.

This hamstrings him even more, as his hired crew will impact his effectiveness in game.

Riders being costed the way they are makes playing a rider and avatar list fairly easy to beat.

I keep trying as the idea is so cool, but unless they tweak it a bit, competitive, he is not.

[Mordeqai]

Even though I haven't personally played aSeamus, I've seen him played. By turn 4, he can have Terrifying 17, Anathema, and have all enemy models in 10" (I believe) receive a -2 Wp

Terrifying 19, with Anathema. Pandora, the willpower mindfreak master, needs a 12 or higher to not flee. Every minion with 5 or less almost automatically fails, which is most of Malifaux.

[HtUnliving]

I've considered Avatars for all Masters that I find interesting (atm Nicodem, McM, Ramos, Rasputina, Levy, Lilith... well, almost all; Lynch is an exception).

And I'm happy with the results. Some Masters' Avatars are so cool I want to try them out sometime even though it would mean a wholly new crew, eg. Lilith, McM. Nicodem's, my alltime favorite Master and crewleader, Avatar is just awesome.

Yeah yeah, just theory but my point is that the Avatars are fun and changes how you approach the game. Which is all it needs because what's cooler than knowing that there is the option of taking a little upgrade to the most important model of your crew, ie. the Master, and as a result giving him an extra ace up his sleeve, incase the game situation is such that the Avatar mode can help.

And also, the fluff of the Master feeding on Souls so much that it "levels up"... Cool and balanced idea.

Not all Masters have good avatars per se, but if you like the Avatar, give it a go. All Avatars is good in one or another way, they just need learning.

[Dracomax]

I hear that aDreamer is pretty pointless. Given that to manifest him, you should probably have already won the game.