Collodi + Leveticus = Widow Weaver

[DarcXON]

Ok so my question is this, Widow Weaver's ability allows it to be hired by crews containing Collodi, so can Leveticus hire her yes/no?

I presented the list and was told I could not, but then I asked why and they said nothing.

My point was that Affinity (Collodi): This model may be hired by crews containing the indicated model. This allows her to be taken with Collodi when he is used as a Master. Collodi has Special Forces Leader (Dolls) : when this model leads a crew he can only hire dolls.

Leveticus Pariah says that he may only hire Constructs, Soulless and Undead.

Based on the wording alone it should be fine, so is it legal or not and why?

Edited August 8, 2012 by DarcXON

[Hateful Darkblack]

The Crew Creator seems to indicate not.

I believe this is because, and I know this sounds strange, Pariah says "Crew containing this model can only hired Constructs, Undead, and Soulless models..." and the can in Leveticus' Pariah overrules the may in Weaver Widow's Affinity, because "can" always has priority over "may."

[DarcXON]

The Crew Creator seems to indicate not.

I believe this is because, and I know this sounds strange, Pariah says "Crew containing this model can only hired Constructs, Undead, and Soulless models..." and the can in Leveticus' Pariah overrules the may in Weaver Widow's Affinity, because "can" always has priority over "may."

But see that's the thing, Collodi ALSO says can. I wrote all the reasons that it should be working.

[baskinders]

I think it's the word "only" in Levi's Pariah that's the trump here. You "can" hire the widow weaver if you have collodi, but if Levi's around, you "can only" have the listed figs, which rules out the weaver.

[DarcXON]

I think it's the word "only" in Levi's Pariah that's the trump here. You "can" hire the widow weaver if you have collodi, but if Levi's around, you "can only" have the listed figs, which rules out the weaver.

They BOTH say Only

---------- Post added at 10:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:59 PM ----------

The only difference in the wording for both Collodi and Leveticus is the Type of models.

[ZiggyQubert]

as the rules manual states -

Models hired by a Crew must meet all special hiring rule restrictions or they

cannot be hired.

so hiering the weaver widdow dosent fit this criteria becasue it dosent meet the hiering restriction for liviticus

[DarcXON]

as the rules manual states -

Models hired by a Crew must meet all special hiring rule restrictions or they

cannot be hired.

so hiering the weaver widdow dosent fit this criteria becasue it dosent meet the hiering restriction for liviticus

So Widow Weaver can't be hired by Collodi when he leads a crew then.

Edited August 8, 2012 by DarcXON

[Iamwyrd]

If the weaver widow is not a doll or special forces then Collodi can't hire her if he is leading the crew. I don't have my book infront of me so im not sure.

[pugwhan]

Personally I think it's just some bad wording.

Affinity [Collodi]: This model may be hired by crews containing the indicated model.

If we interpret this to mean that crews led by Collodi can't hire her, then the only crew that could hire her outside of Neverborn would be Hoffman, as Collodi can only be hired by Hoffman and Leveticus.

Leveticus couldn't hire the Weaver due to his limitation of only being able to hire Construcs, Undead and Souless.

So it looks like the only Master (other than Neverborn masters) that can hire Collodi and the Weaver would be Hoffman.

I think the intention was to be that Collodi can hire her but in that case the rule should have read " This model may be hired by crews led by the indicated model."

[psychocamel]

If the weaver widow is not a doll or special forces then Collodi can't hire her if he is leading the crew. I don't have my book infront of me so im not sure.

If that were true then there'd be little to no point giving her "Affinity [Collodi]: This model may be hired by crews containing the indicated model."

It all seems rather odd though, the rule in the book is that "CAN beats MAY, CANNOT beats CAN"

[011121]

The widow weaver's affinity over comes collodi's usual restriction, you know this becuase it says so, like by name, It does not over come Levi's restriction as it says nothing about the matter. Do the net result looks something like this:

Question: Can I take widow weaver?

Process: Check all models for issues as a series of AND statements

Collodi- PASS

Levi- FAIL

result: No you can't take WW.

[DarcXON]

Personally I think it's just some bad wording.

Affinity [Collodi]: This model may be hired by crews containing the indicated model.

If we interpret this to mean that crews led by Collodi can't hire her, then the only crew that could hire her outside of Neverborn would be Hoffman, as Collodi can only be hired by Hoffman and Leveticus.

Leveticus couldn't hire the Weaver due to his limitation of only being able to hire Construcs, Undead and Souless.

So it looks like the only Master (other than Neverborn masters) that can hire Collodi and the Weaver would be Hoffman.

I think the intention was to be that Collodi can hire her but in that case the rule should have read " This model may be hired by crews led by the indicated model."

Actually Hoffman can only get Constructs from Arcanists, so not even that.

---------- Post added at 12:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:38 AM ----------

The widow weaver's affinity over comes collodi's usual restriction, you know this becuase it says so, like by name, It does not over come Levi's restriction as it says nothing about the matter. Do the net result looks something like this:

Question: Can I take widow weaver?

Process: Check all models for issues as a series of AND statements

Collodi- PASS

Levi- FAIL

result: No you can't take WW.

Ok. why? Just "cause I say so" is not a good reason (Wyrd is the only one with that Power and even they don't abuse it!)

We presented reasons given by the cards and came up with either both or none. You can't just leave a model out for no reason.

[Dracomax]

Here's my read: Weaver widow's specific text overrides collodi's hring restriction.

Collodi's restrictions are that he can only hire dolls. Levi can hire any construct. therefore, Levi must be the leader in a brawl, because he can hire Collodi, but not vice versa.

Because Levi is the leader, his hiring restrictions apply, rather than collodi's.

Levi cannot hire widow weaver.

[baskinders]

Ok. why? Just "cause I say so" is not a good reason (Wyrd is the only one with that Power and even they don't abuse it!)

We presented reasons given by the cards and came up with either both or none. You can't just leave a model out for no reason.

Sorry mate, it's not because "he says so", it's because that's the rules. As stated earlier in the thread, pg 71 of the rules manual says "Models hired by a Crew must meet all special hiring rule restrictions or they cannot be hired"

What 011121 wrote is simply explaining the process of seeing if you meet that rule. You can't have WW with Levi in any game regardless of any other model you have in your crew because you can never "meet" Levi's hiring restriction. Maybe another model will be released at some point that removes Pariah, but currently that's the rules.

[DarcXON]

Sorry mate, it's not because "he says so", it's because that's the rules. As stated earlier in the thread, pg 71 of the rules manual says "Models hired by a Crew must meet all special hiring rule restrictions or they cannot be hired"

What 011121 wrote is simply explaining the process of seeing if you meet that rule. You can't have WW with Levi in any game regardless of any other model you have in your crew because you can never "meet" Levi's hiring restriction. Maybe another model will be released at some point that removes Pariah, but currently that's the rules.

Wait, I think there is a misunderstanding here. I will have to re-post the information.

Leveticus-- Pariah = A crew Containing this model can only hire Constructs, Soulless and Undead.

Collodi-- Special Forces Leader (Doll) = Crews led by this model can only hire Dolls.

Widow Weaver is not a Doll, Construct, Soulless, or Undead. So her Affinity would not do anything OR it will allow it to be taken by Leveticus and/or Collodi.

Why is this becoming about insulting the OP!? Let's focus on the actual question and less on personal attacks please!

---------- Post added at 05:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:36 PM ----------

Here's my read: Weaver widow's specific text overrides collodi's hring restriction.

Collodi's restrictions are that he can only hire dolls. Levi can hire any construct. therefore, Levi must be the leader in a brawl, because he can hire Collodi, but not vice versa.

Because Levi is the leader, his hiring restrictions apply, rather than collodi's.

Levi cannot hire widow weaver.

That is the current understanding, but it doesn't fit RAW. My question is by RAW and in that case it becomes a "yes they both can" and "no they both can't". Also there is the question of "why" so that I can explain it better in case this comes up.

[Ratty]

DarcXon is right, there is a bit of an issue here. As written it is possible to read it as if the Widow Weaver may not be hired by either crew (as it could be argued may does not override his SF rule). So we need to have a look at it, as that is definitely not the intention. I will discuss this with Kel. (which is also the reason I haven't replied to your PM as we haven't had a chance to discuss it)

For the moment play it that Affinity has the additional clause, "and ignores any restrictions on the model mentioned". So it may ignore Collodi's specific crew restrictions.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Ratty

[Hateful Darkblack]

For the moment play it that Affinity has the additional clause, "and ignores any restrictions on the model mentioned". So it may ignore his specific crew restrictions.

So, this means that Leveticus/Collodi can't hire Weaver Widow, but Collodi alone can, right?

[DarcXON]

DarcXon is right, there is a bit of an issue here. As written, the Widow Weaver may not be hired by either crew. So we need to have a look at it, as that is definitely not the intention. I will discuss this with Kel. (which is also the reason I haven't replied to your PM as we haven't had a chance to discuss it)

For the moment play it that Affinity has the additional clause, "and ignores any restrictions on the model mentioned". So it may ignore his specific crew restrictions.

Love you Ratty! Don't worry about the PM, I actually knew that you were being careful since you are always so helpful.

[Ratty]

So, this means that Leveticus/Collodi can't hire Weaver Widow, but Collodi alone can, right?

Until we have a definitive answer, yep.

---------- Post added at 10:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:49 PM ----------

There is a general rule that each model in a crew must be able to be hired with every other model. So even if Collodi can hire the Widow Weaver, Leviticus can't be in the same crew with the Widow Weaver, so it's not a legal crew.

More or less following the same logic as 011121 post.

[011121]

DarcXon is right, there is a bit of an issue here. As written, the Widow Weaver may not be hired by either crew. So we need to have a look at it, as that is definitely not the intention. I will discuss this with Kel. (which is also the reason I haven't replied to your PM as we haven't had a chance to discuss it)

For the moment play it that Affinity has the additional clause, "and ignores any restrictions on the model mentioned". So it may ignore his specific crew restrictions.

Really? The intention was for Levi to be able to take the widow weaver? I have to say that surprises me a lot. I thought the way affinity was worded it already overrides collodi's restriction because can always overrides can't.

[baskinders]

Why is this becoming about insulting the OP!? Let's focus on the actual question and less on personal attacks please!

Wow, not sure why you think a factual explanation of the rules as they're written is insulting or a personal attack? I was unemotionally replying with statements related to rules?

I agree with 011121 in that I thought the WW affinity as written overrides Collodis restriction, but obviously not Levi's?

[Ratty]

Wait, I think you two are confused. What I said was that was how it should work. It allows Collodi to be in the same crew as the Widow Weaver, but as nothing allows Leviticus to be in the same crew as the Widow Weaver, so you can't take Leveticus, Collodi and the Widow Weaver in the same crew. I even said 011121 was right.

All I said was the way affinity is written at the moment might be a bit weak to override Collodi's hiring restrictions. But it should be played as if it does, and I would discuss if it needed some clarification. Hence me saying you should play it as if it had a clause saying "and ignores any restrictions on the model mentioned" the model mentioned being Collodi. So it may be hired ignoring his SF restriction.

---------- Post added at 03:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:50 AM ----------

Really? The intention was for Levi to be able to take the widow weaver? I have to say that surprises me a lot. I thought the way affinity was worded it already overrides collodi's restriction because can always overrides can't.

Not at all see above, I've also cleaned up my original post a bit.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Ratty

[baskinders]

Ah, sweet Ratty, cheers mate

[011121]

Gotcha, thanks for the clarification.

[xeth1313]

I understand that the logic behind Leveticus not being able to hire the, but has there been any development on this? I would Love if it was decided that Levi could hire her. I understand if GenCon has everyone busy at the moment.

[DireTrollJake]

If we could take everything with Levi that Collodi could take solo it would take away from the option of having them separate. I wish it could be so as well, but also see the downside.