Three Seamus Changes... Please?

[Twisted Metal]

My sisters of battle got a magazine which promptly went out of stock and I was unable to buy... Haven't played 40k since.

[ClayWeeks]

Now, I was just using a drastic example to prove a smaller point. Let's all pray Wyrd has more integrity than GW.

[edonil]

My sisters of battle got a magazine which promptly went out of stock and I was unable to buy... Haven't played 40k since.

It wasn't that good. I read it and was convinced to sell my Sisters because they went from middle of the pack to flavorless and nearly unplayable.

[Rathnard]

Let's hope it happens sooner than that! My Dark Eldar waited 12 years...

So did mine - and by the time the new Codex arrived I'd well and truely moved on.

In all fairness though, Wyrd does effectively revamp the old Masters every year in the form of new minions. For instance, Avatar Seamus was a significant addition to Seamus's toolbox and book 4 has brought us models that help plug two of Seamus' weaknesses - Yin (Anathema) and Chiaki (who can strip the Watcher's anti-terrifying attack).

I agree that it would be nice to see certain early masters and minions get tweaked to bring them more in line with the rest of the range, but in the meantime I think Wyrd have done a good job at balancing things out through the use of new additions to their crews.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I think you are over simplifying my view point if you think I just want Seamus to be able to kill things, not killing things is certainly fine, but the way Seamus goes about his job isn't competitively effective.

@Rathnard: I would disagree that Yin and Chiaki solve any of Seamus' problems. I'm not knocking their additions, I very much look forward to Yin's release very much, but I don't think the existence of either or both makes Seamus' competitive needle move up the track at all. I could certainly make the arguments for why I think so, but until I get a chance to use them on the table it would all be speculation backed up without any direct experience.

[Rathnard]

I could certainly make the arguments for why I think so, but until I get a chance to use them on the table it would all be speculation backed up without any direct experience.

Well I can only really answer that with "ditto".

If nothing else though, there's one thing I think we can all agree on - Seamus's soulstone cache could really do with a boost.

[CannonFodder]

I think Wyrds main goal in designing is to make more options to play, not just revamp the existing. The Book one masters will eventually need to be "retired" for getting boosts. With only releasing 25-30 models a years and 5/6 masters year its not feasable to keep them all in most resent levels. The current power creep is not too steep so I can't complain. The best I think we can hope for are models like Yin and Chiaki who have abilities that can fit into seamus crew.

So far in book 4 I've seen little or no models that can be hired out of faction with zoraida, Spirits for Kirai are minimal, same for beast for Marcus. Where they did try an boost existing faction they make them usable by multiple master (Mctavish is good with Ophelia, Somer, Viki, Vonschill, Ressers {nurse combo, and 3 corpse} , and lastly Marcus due to beast synergy).

To keep the conversation constructive, I'd try and suggest abilities or models that you would like to see that are mixable to boost multiple crews at once. Even cross factional.

I'm still leading to a Generic 'Lacky' totem for the 3 original resser masters that's Manifest friendly. Also will count as copy cat killer for scheme purposes. I find the resser master (except kirai) have the nicest avatars and it really fits their theme well.

[Gruesome]

Let's hope it happens sooner than that! My Dark Eldar waited 12 years...

Our Necrons waited since the release of 5th edition cuddled them.

Thank goodness they finally got "fixed"!

Oh wait... *OUR* necrons did not get fixed. All new models came out to REPLACE our $1000 of models.

---------- Post added at 08:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:43 AM ----------

Defeatest yes, however I have yet to see a Mini's game (and I play or have played most of them) that could accomplish anywhere near real balance. The only way to really balance everything against everything else is to have everything essentially the same and limit choices.

Lets stop talking about balance. The thread was not originally created talking about balance. It was asking whether 3 changes would make Seamus more competitive.

A lot of the feedback implied that it would make him "too" competitive to make the changes I originally asked for.

So, I'd simply ask you if you think he is good enough as is or whether a few changes might make him more competitive.

Generalizations about the state of the game or its balance or whatever are besides the point.

[Omenbringer]

So, I'd simply ask you if you think he is good enough as is or whether a few changes might make him more competitive.

I would say that is a very loaded question, a lot depends on the random strategy, schemes selected, crew selection, opposition crew and player skill. Is Seamus competitive in all situations definately not, however there are a lot of other masters/models/crews that aren't either (in those situations you either choose another option or push the boulder up hill).

Generalizations about the state of the game or its balance or whatever are besides the point.

A discussion of balance is at the heart of all these "revision" debates and I would say is the main point (otherwise what do you base sub-standard preformance on?).

[Gruesome]

I would say that is a very loaded question, a lot depends on the random strategy, schemes selected, crew selection, opposition crew and player skill. Is Seamus competitive in all situations definately not, however there are a lot of other masters/models/crews that aren't either (in those situations you either choose another option or push the boulder up hill).

A discussion of balance is at the heart of all these "revision" debates and I would say is the main point (otherwise what do you base sub-standard preformance on?).

I said "Generalizations about the state of the game or its balance or whatever are besides the point."

This thread is about Seamus and his place in the rezzers. Nothing more. You bring up all these other things which I do not care about. I asked what people thought about the changes for him I proposed and got lots of interesting answers, many of which were suggestions that I liked more than most of my original ideas.

I asked whether you thought Seamus was "good enough" or not. You effectively said "it depends".

I do not believe it "depends" as I can name a different rezzer master that I honestly believe would be better at each and every strategy and scheme in the game. (Except his own... and even then, its close)

OF COURSE the crew compositions matter and OF COURSE Seamus is capable of doing many of them in his own right. NOTHING I am saying is the same as saying Seamus cannot win.

Its fine if you disagree. Its "allowed".

I just do not have an interest in turning this discussion into some game sweeping balance generalization when its really as simple as:

"What would it take for Seamus to be a competitive consideration and possibly even contender?"

It sounds like your answer is: "Nothing. He is."

To which I might say something like, "Our experiences differ. But thank you for the feedback."

Edited November 14, 2012 by Gruesome

[Fetid Strumpet]

The problem is that competitive masters tend to be good at alot of things. That is part of what makes them competitive. If you need niche situations to be effective that is almost the definition of uncompetitive. You'll notice, just as a generalization not as a de facto state of affairs, that Nix's posts from the 2011 Gen Con Tourney don't make his list choice about what strat he was doing, but about what opponent he was playing against. His Masters could do whatever the strat was well, it was who he was playing against that made the difference.

In recent Gamer's lounge podcasts Nix and his crew were discussing which master of the Ten Thunderers was best for which strat, and while they didn't always agree, Misaki's name came up again and again, which means she is effective at more things, making her a more competitive master. I'm not saying that this is the case in every situation, but it can be a defining hallmark. Also, as someone pointed out earlier, Seamus has trouble against certain crew builds. Competitive masters also often don't have issues with requiring very specific crews to play against. A competitive master can certainly be weak against specific crews, look at a match up of Kirai vs. the Vicks, but requiring the opponent bring a specific crew, that's not going to happen all that often. In Seamus' case it gets even more complicated.

Seamus wants to play against mostly living crews, because his tricks are so WP and terror dependent, but if even if you look at crews which often contain a high percentage of living crews you'll notice that they almost always have significant buffs inbuilt to their WP. Stubborn or Fear Not Death are incredibly common abilities for living models, Von Schill's Hard Ass, Mei Feng's and Colette's WP buffs, living crews get boosted for WP all over the place, which from a certain stand point makes sense, as being a living model was often a disadvantage so they certainly deserved somthing to make certain they weren't just destroyed. Enter Seamus' crew which wants to pull those tricks, but now they are rendered even more difficult to pull off by those buffs. (Which btw is why I would propose changing Trail of Fear to just being an always on ability.)

I would certainly love to bring Seamus out of the case more often than I do, which is one of the reasons I'm contributing to this thread. I can also certainly see "fixing" masters which are not currently competitive by releasing new models to synergize with them better. I'd also love to see battle reports from competitive players showing how those players who feel he is just fine use him to win against the likes of Pandora, Colette, Hamelin, Zoraida, and the other top tier masters. I will certainly admit that my experiences could be down to how I play him, and I would love to be proven wrong about my belief that he is a beginner's master. Great for learning the game and casual play, but not something an experienced player will even think of touching at a competitive tournament.

It is part of the reason I feel Im agree with Omenbringer that Malifaux might not be a game that lends itself well to tournaments. I played a good amount of CCG tournaments, and for a number of years I competed playing my faction, even when they weren't very good, but I got tired of being beaten, not because I was outplayed, although that did happen, alot =), but because my faction was just weaker. If I spend money to attend a tournament if I find it vastly preferable and more educational to be beaten because I'm outplayed rather than because I chose a master that was less effective than the opponent's. I realize that your milage and preferences might vary, but I would imagine that this is a fairly common sentiment.

[Omenbringer]

I'd also love to see battle reports from competitive players showing how those players who feel he is just fine use him to win against the likes of Pandora, Colette, Hamelin, Zoraida, and the other top tier masters.

To be fair most crews suffer against those particular Masters/crews.

The problem isn't necessarily adjusting everyone else up to their level (which would be a herculean task and likely result in a very broken game anyway) but toning those models down to everyone else (which is a much easier task and results in the game being better balanced).

And though I am not a big fan of "unfluffy" models in crews the Carrion Effigy goes a long way to removing some of Saemus' weakness against specific models/crews.

Edited November 14, 2012 by Omenbringer

[Gruesome]

I can also certainly see "fixing" masters which are not currently competitive by releasing new models to synergize with them better.

I am not convinced at all that this works. Keeping in mind that this thread is concerned with Seamus' place relative to the other rezzer masters there was a recent thread about whether the 10T brought anything for Seamus.

Aside from the typical tangent arguments, I still felt coming out of the thread that while the rezzers got some WONDERFUL toys from 10T, nothing in them changed Seamus' relative position for me in any matchup or strategy as compared to the rest of the rezzer masters. ALL the masters benefited greatly.

I am 100% willing to grant that Yin might be a shining beacon of hope since Seamus is our only Terrifying master out of the box. But I also can't help but wonder whether him directly benefiting from Anathema is not as awesome as it could be considering that he'd need to be in HIS melee range to make use of it and therefore trading its potential for all sorts of his other "bag of tricks".

I also wonder whether other masters would not benefit as much or more since they tend to include someone like Dead Rider(Nicodem), with his 3 inch melee range and terrifying purpose.

As I said above, I believe ALL rezzers gained in 10T, but did Seamus really gain in terms of his position amongst the rezzers for ANY strategy?

With Yin, I think more than ever that Nicodem is our absolute go to when it comes to Claim Jump and as I have learned from others, for Supply Wagon.

As far as the generalizations about whether "Malifaux is meant to be competitive or not"... These are discussions I personally do not care about. I know that "big picture" aside, that if Seamus was a little better he'd be a contender for some strats when people are looking for their best chance, in faction. And that's what I care about.

Edited November 14, 2012 by Gruesome

[Fetid Strumpet]

You have personally found the carrion effigy effective? I find it's pretty sub par to be honest. It's unique, prevents you from bringing the Grave Spirit, it is very easy to take out, and the abilities you'd bring it for are small aura's and the strip immunities one still won't make non living models susceptible for Terror.

If the effigy is a model that you are finding of assistance to a competitive Seamus list you must use it very skillfully. Which I would again be very interested in seeing battle reports highlighting its proper use. As an addendum, that isn't sarcasm btw, it is honest interest as my personal experiences have shown the Carrion Effigy to be best as an insanely fun model to paint, and an awesome display piece, but really not much else.

---------- Post added at 03:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:07 PM ----------

Gruesome, I think Yin is a Great model for Seamus ( don't forget the Face of death give Seamus a Terrifying range of 4") but that his place in competitiveness because of her will move Seamus exactly 0% upwards.

She's a great model, I'm not trying to knock what she does at all, but focusing on Terror doesn't work well because you have no way to FORCE the opponent to fail your check in the way Pandora can make you run using a crow on a cast. That means very often if there is a critical model that they can use to kill your Anathema model, that model is almost assured to pass. Yes it will drain resources from them unless they get a lucky flip, and that is nothing to be upset about, but it's not a game winning model in the way the Rail Golem is.

Also Yin's ability to hand out Anathema is good, certainly, but the circumstances that make Anathema good, coupled with issues of Activation order make it a niche ability at best.

Again, I think Yin is awesome, but I think she is great more for her constrict spell and - attack flips vs her than anything else. I will be happy to be proven wrong with playtesting however come march.

Also in reference to your statement that you aren't certain how well releasing models to fix master's short comings work, think of this, if a new totem were released for Seamus which gave him new abilities or ways to be played, that could go a long way to fixing him.

As one example let's say they fixed or updated the copycat killer so that his switch spell became an ability without a casting check that didn't need LoS.

Or they gave Seamus a totem which gave him companion Belle, and perhaps another ability or so.

New models can certainly address a particular masters weaknesses, but I feel they have to be tailored in many ways to the master they are trying to improve.

[Gruesome]

I was having second thoughts about saying new models would not affect things when I started thinking about what a new belle type could mean, so its silly to think that NO new model could change things up. A new belle type that maybe did something slick and covered a hole of some sort WOULD benefit Seamus specifically. (Especially if he could summon them). And just like Rotten Belles are great for everyone, they are best with Seamus, a new Belle would fit that niche well. (And help Molly to boot)

Your view of Carrion Effigy is the same as mine. It is literally one of my favorite models in the game and I use it when I can because I like the model, but the only positive impact it has ever had for me was some lucky blasts off its ranged attack.

For its aura and letting others heal from CC consumption, it has never paid off for me. Its particularly biting for me recently as I have been dabbling with my first Neverborn crew, the Dark Debts stuff I got from Gencon and Mr. Tannen so far has been six points of AWESOME.

I know they are not the same, but he has that feel I sort of wanted out of Carrion Effigy where he wanders in and just messes with EVERYONE around him.

That blast-template game aside, all the carrion has ever done for me is look cool (Even though is he is still only primed) and do little.

Edited November 14, 2012 by Gruesome

[Adran]

Aside from the typical tangent arguments, I still felt coming out of the thread that while the rezzers got some WONDERFUL toys from 10T, nothing in them changed Seamus' relative position for me in any matchup or strategy as compared to the rest of the rezzer masters. ALL the masters benefited greatly.

I am 100% willing to grant that Yin might be a shining beacon of hope since Seamus is our only Terrifying master out of the box. But I also can't help but wonder whether him directly benefiting from Anathema is not as awesome as it could be considering that he'd need to be in HIS melee range to make use of it and therefore trading its potential for all sorts of his other "bag of tricks".

I also wonder whether other masters would not benefit as much or more since they tend to include someone like Dead Rider(Nicodem), with his 3 inch melee range and terrifying purpose.

Considering one of the complaints is that Seamus does really badly once models get into his melee range, an ability that helps him when models get into his melee range could be seen as good.

I don't have much experience with the faction as a whole, but I've never seen any of them as an easy game. I wouldn't play Nicodem for a tournement, btu thats because he needs 6 turns to do his stuff and thats rare in tournements.

Reading this thread it does remind me of the many threads about Marcus 2 years ago, how he was the weakest master out there and could never be competative. Until some good players started playing him, and showed that he can do really well if used to his strengths. I think some of the same happened with Sommer. Often it took someone with a fresh perspective to look outside the box and show what can actually be done.

[Soundwave]

Reading this thread it does remind me of the many threads about Marcus 2 years ago, how he was the weakest master out there and could never be competative. Until some good players started playing him, and showed that he can do really well if used to his strengths.

Now if only Seamus could hire Kaeris...

[Gruesome]

Reading this thread it does remind me of the many threads about Marcus 2 years ago, how he was the weakest master out there and could never be competative. Until some good players started playing him, and showed that he can do really well if used to his strengths. I think some of the same happened with Sommer. Often it took someone with a fresh perspective to look outside the box and show what can actually be done.

Perhaps we will someday have the Bobby Fischer of Seamus come along and show some of us the error of our ways.

None of this stops me from getting his Avatar painted enough for a tournament this weekend...

[Omenbringer]

Reading this thread it does remind me of the many threads about Marcus 2 years ago, how he was the weakest master out there and could never be competative. Until some good players started playing him, and showed that he can do really well if used to his strengths. I think some of the same happened with Sommer. Often it took someone with a fresh perspective to look outside the box and show what can actually be done.

I would tend to agree with most of this (though would argue that Som'er was competitive from the very start).

[edonil]

If that's the case, why doesn't someone do that? I mean, it's actually been a common thing to come up in these threads too, for people to say 'if you think Seamus is just fine, run him, and tell us what you think'. Not as a defiant 'moron, just wait until you try it' but as a 'let us know what we've missed'. I'd love to see someone who plays Seamus and think he's fine really sit down and talk about what they're doing. Some people have started to do that, but not a lot of people seem to be playing him, at least not competitively.

[Boshea]

I think there is strong argument to be made for allowing the flintlock to be fired multiple times, or by increasing its damage. Compare Seamus shooting ability to Samael. Under the effects of Flaming Bullets , Sam has a near identical damage spread to the flintlock with his Colt. Granted you may need to burn a reasonably high card to cast the spell, but you're almost always burning a high-card and/or Soulstone to make sure your one flintlock shot hits for a cheatable flip. On top of having similar damage Sam has better range, CB, and the ability to rapid fire with his colt.

If I had to pick one word to describe Seamus, it'd be Schizophrenic. He does a little of everything, but doesn't really accel at anything. He can shoot, summon, toss magic, melee, and tank but doesn't have one feature stand out exceptionally well. He can't shoot enough to be a ranged piece, his range means he will likely get charged in response, he is the weakest of the summoners, his magic is lacking, while having decent triggers for melee he has average CB and damage at best, and DF4+H2W2 is a double edged sword. He is overly dependent on the opponent fielding either undead or living models since he needs Ministrations to stay alive. Changing live for pain to be non-ranged would likely be the easiest change since it would give him decent healing and make him less reliant on Ministrations to stay alive. He can tar-pit reasonably well from the combination Trail of Fear+Undead Psychosis+Face of Death, but he doesn't do much pre-avatar in melee and tar-pitting a crew is only reasonably useful in the right combination of strategies and schemes.

[Omenbringer]

If that's the case, why doesn't someone do that? I mean, it's actually been a common thing to come up in these threads too, for people to say 'if you think Seamus is just fine, run him, and tell us what you think'. Not as a defiant 'moron, just wait until you try it' but as a 'let us know what we've missed'. I'd love to see someone who plays Seamus and think he's fine really sit down and talk about what they're doing. Some people have started to do that, but not a lot of people seem to be playing him, at least not competitively.

Well there used to be a really good Seamus Tactica on the forum that did just this...to bad that guy rage quit and deleted the entry (wonder if it was archived anywhere?).

[edonil]

Yeah, I read it a while back...too bad he deleted it. :/ But still, even back then we were having these conversations. Hell, he was having them. It just creates this weird environment at times.

'Seamus is fine!'

"Why do you say that?"

'Because I play him.'

"Cool, what do you do!"

*chirping*

Not saying everyone does this, just saying that it's an impression I've had from the resser forums since that got deleted. And yes, I've heard the 'why don't you write a tactica for Seamus' reply. And it's legitimate. My response- I'm not good with anyone, much less Seamus, lol. Part of the reason I'd like to see a tactica.

[Omenbringer]

Compare Seamus shooting ability to Samael. Under the effects of Flaming Bullets , Sam has a near identical damage spread to the flintlock with his Colt. Granted you may need to burn a reasonably high card to cast the spell, but you're almost always burning a high-card and/or Soulstone to make sure your one flintlock shot hits for a cheatable flip. On top of having similar damage Sam has better range, CB, and the ability to rapid fire with his colt.

Samael can get to the same (or better in specific situations) damage out put than Seamus however to really maximize the potential it requires the successful casting of a spell (that has a 38% chance with cheating), the expenditure of a control card and 2 AP to get three shots (with a threat range of 10", none of which can be focused). His other option is to cast the spell, move once and shoot once for a threat range of 14".

Seamus on the other hand can move twice and shoot the flintlock (or move once and focus the shot) for a threat range of 16" (12 if he focuses). Seamus also has Rotten Belles to Lure him into position (Seamus or the intended Target) which vastly increases his threat range. Lastly, Samael may have 1 more point of Cb for a small theortical advantage (however Seamus can use a SS in addition to cheating or Focus the shot (and use a SS and/or cheat) to increase the potential to inflict Severe damage or preserve the ability to cheat the damage with lower values).

---------- Post added at 11:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:48 PM ----------

Yeah, I read it a while back...too bad he deleted it. :/ But still, even back then we were having these conversations. Hell, he was having them. It just creates this weird environment at times.

'Seamus is fine!'

"Why do you say that?"

'Because I play him.'

"Cool, what do you do!"

*chirping*

Not saying everyone does this, just saying that it's an impression I've had from the resser forums since that got deleted. And yes, I've heard the 'why don't you write a tactica for Seamus' reply. And it's legitimate. My response- I'm not good with anyone, much less Seamus, lol. Part of the reason I'd like to see a tactica.

Hell I wish I had the time to write one myself (contributing to the Som'er one on Pullmyfinger was time consuming enough and I still owe one for Lenny)

[Gruesome]

Its a little bit funny to me to talk about "he who shall not be named" and his tactica for Seamus when its his perceptions of the state of the Rezzers, INCLUDING Seamus that contributed to him rage-quitting. (And his perception that Neverborn were getting too much in 10T)

If only he had just chilled long enough to have the book in his hands...