Three Seamus Changes... Please?

[Dorian]

• Face of Death change to 3 Anathema -> 14
  
  

It would need to be written:

Face of Death change to 3 Terrifying -> 14 + Anathema

Anathema is not terrifying it just means your terrifying can't be ignored except by another model with anathema.

Edited August 7, 2012 by Dorian

[Pierowmaniac]

Seamus to me is one of the best resser masters for, Distract, primarly because excessive bleeding can keep the enemy master from being significant and therefore not scoring for distract. However to get it off you have to put him in danger, which was an issue prior to avatar.

DAMN I missed that last week, had distract and it didn't cross my mind .... though I did have to try and hit Lilith

[Gruesome]

Seamus to me is one of the best resser masters for, Distract, primarly because excessive bleeding can keep the enemy master from being significant and therefore not scoring for distract.

If you can make the enemy master insignificant, that could be cool...

But you are standing in melee with them for that trigger. Personally, I would rather be McMourning standing next to the enemy master because them being insignificant is not as cool as them being dead.

I can appreciate that we all like Seamus. That's why there are 5 pages of discussion on him in less than a day. But, it does sort of feel like people are making cases for "Seamus can do this" as being the same as "there is no rezzer master that could do this better than Seamus".

But, maybe I am wrong...

How about this. If the original changes, or some combination of changes discussed since the OP were implemented, would someone win Gencon playing Seamus at least half his games?

Edited August 7, 2012 by Gruesome

[DeleteAccount]

I'm in the camp that a cache of 4, necrotic ministrations working on everything (come on, the guy can get a hardon from a zombie doing it's final thud but not from a spirit howling in despair or a soulless becoming a bunch of smoke or a construct going out with a satisfying kaboom?) and taking out the gun from Live for Pain. That and changing his scheme into something doable, those 4 things wuld give him a big fat spike. He wouldn't be Kirai, but at least I would look at him with a much better eye than right now, recently started McMourning and good god the difference in efficiency between the two is outright baffling.

[Blog]

If you can make the enemy master insignificant, that could be cool...

But you are standing in melee with them for that trigger. Personally, I would rather be McMourning standing next to the enemy master because them being insignificant is not as cool as them being dead.

I can appreciate that we all like Seamus. That's why there are 5 pages of discussion on him in less than a day. But, it does sort of feel like people are making cases for "Seamus can do this" as being the same as "there is no rezzer master that could do this better than Seamus".

But, maybe I am wrong...

How about this. If the original changes, or some combination of changes discussed since the OP were implemented, would someone win Gencon playing Seamus at least half his games?

After he does excessive bleeding, the belle that he womanizered can lure him out of the melee. And if the enemy master has activated already, that is even better.

Him and McM still achieve the strat, just by different means. Yes if McM gets a hold of it, there is a good chance it will be dead after he is finished. Seamus can just make it insignificant, STILL denying 4vp. McM after a flurry of attacks might miss a couple and then what? He missed a couple and the enemy master is still alive. All Seamus needs is a high crow and a high flip on a soulstone to get a trigger that just flat out denies 4vp.

Both Methods are effective.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Not much survives a channeled + SS cast of dissection however.

[DarcXON]

Not much survives a channeled + SS cast of dissection however.

Cheers! Alongside a Levi Punch I fear getting hit by Dissection. Granted you need to hit, but either of them might as well say

Useless/Meh/Holy crap! on their damage profile. The only other things I'm wary of are Slumber Trigger from Coppelius and Mental Anguish from Pandora.

Edited August 7, 2012 by DarcXON

[Silas Cordell]

I'm in the camp that a cache of 4, necrotic ministrations working on everything (come on, the guy can get a hardon from a zombie doing it's final thud but not from a spirit howling in despair or a soulless becoming a bunch of smoke or a construct going out with a satisfying kaboom?) and taking out the gun from Live for Pain. That and changing his scheme into something doable, those 4 things wuld give him a big fat spike. He wouldn't be Kirai, but at least I would look at him with a much better eye than right now, recently started McMourning and good god the difference in efficiency between the two is outright baffling.

Seconded (or thirded or fourthed or whatever).

I like these changes. They are simple, elegant, and provide much more benefit than they first appear to.

Cache 5 would be nice (hey, so would cache 8, but that'll never happen), but I think 4 would be reasonable. I don't feel that Seamus is meant to be a "huge ranged threat," so I don't really like the idea of removing the 1 shot limit from the pistol, mostly as an aesthetic thing. As far as Anathema goes, I really don't want to ever see that on something that isn't an avatar. Some other reworking of Terrifying or Morale duels I would look at, but I think that Anathema is something that should be reserved to keep avatars special.

[hippieshopper]

Not much survives a channeled + SS cast of dissection however.

I dunno about all that...minions maybe...but if it's contain power...

Against most masters, who can also use SS, getting a severe is not likely. Most of the time you will be at a :-flip and that is no bueno for McM.

Also what if you do get 10 damage, most of the time they will burn a SS and mitigate it down. Then that lethal damage is now mean...but survivable while the dear doctor is very tired and no longer activated.

[CannonFodder]

I don't think they will make an errata to buff a model. Cuddling for balance is one thing, but buffing opens a whole can of worms rules wise, because then they would be expected to do it for all master eventually.

But I do see them making a new models to boost a crew (ie Snowstorm and Silent one for Raspy). A 1 SS totem that lets you bring your Avatar for free, counts as copy cat killer for Scheme purposes, and will survive a manifest would fit this. Currently I never see the Copycat killer in play, and they've already made a second totem for Ramos to fix him.

[sharpobjects]

I have recently been playing Seamus for a change of pace. I have played about a dozen games with him over the last few months.

After reading through this thread and my experiences with him I would suggest the following to bring him in line to be more competitive at the tourney level;

Increase his stone cache to 4.

Removing the ranged icon from Live for Pain.

I agree with changing Necrotic Ministrations to any model killed ONLY if the ranged icon is not removed from Live for Pain. I do not agree that both need to be changed.

Allow the Flintlock to be fired a second time if you missed the first. (1) reload, fire the flintlock at the same target after missing with a Flintlock strike.

With a CB5 and only being allowed to shoot once I find myself more often than not cheating in a high card and spending a soul stone to make sure I get the shot off.

If Seamus was to only get one change, my vote would be being able to shoot the Flintlock one more time after a miss.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I agree outside of a new edition that we are unlikely to see under powered models be errata'd to be stronger. There are too many issues that will crop up in doing so. I would certainly favor specific models being released to increase the competitiveness of particular masters, but even that method is open to hit and miss.

The other issue is that the attitude of the Wyrd employees who have weighed in on this subject is they feel Seamus is perfectly fine and working as intended, and that he is not under powered compared to other masters. I can certainly respect their opinion even though I don't agree with it. Overall I like what they are doing or I wouldn't be trying to grow the game every place I go.

Those of us who are die hard Seamus fans I think are just going to have to accept that for the time being Seamus is a training master. Lots of character, great for learning the game, certainly awesome for casual games, but not a master that will find its way into your line up for competitive play outside of very niche situations. As has been stated before no game is perfectly balanced and in this instance those who like Seamus will just have to deal with the fact that our favorite master isn't among the top in the game. At least we get off better than someone whose favorite is considered over the top, who causes groans from players when ever they are brought out of the case.

Addendum:

After thinking more about the issue I think my ideal changes to Seamus, looking from the standpoint of making him a competitive master would be the following adjustments. (Keep in mind I'm not advocating for these to happen, its just a thought experiment)

Trail of Fear becomes a permanent Aura rather than a 0 action.

Give Seamus a 0 ability titled something like Difficult to Catch which would mimic the effects of Von Schill's Augmented Jump.

Allow Necrotic Ministrations to work on any model killed in range.

Remove the gun icon from Live for Pain, or give Seamus Gunfighter [Live for Pain]

Increase Seamus' Cache to 4.

I think that would do it.

[Golden]

I find it interesting that no one has thought to keep the gun icon on Live for Pain but increase the range to 10" or 12."

On Fetid Strumpet's train of thought how about this:

One Step Ahead: During this models activation, it may ignore the melee range of insignificant enemy models when making ranged attacks. Insignificant models may never make disengaging strikes against this model.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Seamus' issue isn't that he needs more range, he needs things to be able to do once he's engaged. All of Seamus' threat is medium range which means he is going to get charged as soon as he's done his stuff. He has absolutely nothing scary to give even a minor minion pause in coming after him. Once he's engaged in combat he's most likely not getting out very easily, barring a lure or two from a belle, and frankly even if Seamus uses his Womanizer to get a belle to go after him, and lures him twice from combat, the minion engaging him most likely just needs to charge him to engage him again on the next activation.

Live for Pain is Seamus's healing spell, and the fact that he cannot use it while engaged in H2H is a problem. The ability to cause attrition based dg, IE he can keep draining you via Live for Pain and healing, and the enemy minion keeps being drained, would make him much more scary to engage in melee. As it is I haven't seen a single minion even hesitate to engage with him, even living ones which should theoretically pause given his terror abilities.

I'd personally always rather be engaged by Seamus then even Raspy, as Raspy, if she hasn't activated, can still most likely drain you down to 1 wd via her 0 action spell, and then punch you via a soul stone for one dg, killing you. I think there is something wrong when mechanically you would rather be in melee with the most feared serial killer in Malifaux than with a caster who is weak in H2H.

Again though this is my personal opinion as I'm certain not everyone would agree with me.

[naz9]

Can't you take a Carrion Effigy and remove all those Immune abilities anyway? Seems like a nice combo rather than just blasting away with his gun..albiet a good one. He's Jack the Ripper TopHat killer fluff wise..not Rambo, right?

[Omenbringer]

Honestly I do not think there is a lot that really needs to be changed with Seamus except perhaps moving a few of those (0) actions to a 1 action (or giving him Instinctual). My recommendation would be to start with Arise, My Sweet (it's not like it has a very high probablity even with cheating and SS usage) and then perhaps No Escape).

In my opinion some of these other changes are a bit over the top (not saying they wouldn't work but would dramatically change him). For example removing the icon from Live for Pain means that Seamus will almost never use his melee weapon (unless he really wants to get those triggers) as he is better served by just spamming the spell (higher success rate due to 2 points on the stat, better weak damage potential, and of course the healing).

I have gone back and forth on the increase to the SS cache as I really see it only being used to fuel the Flintlock strikes (which will almost guaranty the death of any 4-5 SS model within range).

He may not be a super competitive Master but I would argue that he isn't alone in that world.

[DeleteAccount]

Frankly, Seamus melee weapon is pretty mediocre outside of his triggers, so taking the gun out of living for Pain makes him actually useful while engaged instead of making him a confused jackrabbit that is hoping for his triggers. Hell, the reason his avatar is so melee centric is probably in part to compensate how utterly screwed he is if engaged and unable to get out.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Seamus' Melee Weapon is a CB 5, 1/3/5... Saying that you shouldn't remove the icon from Live for Pain because he will forsake his melee weapon... The stats on his weapon make it something you honestly would already want to ignore given the option, aside from it's triggers. Are you really saying that if Seamus gets engaged you really feel hitting something with his Bag o' Tools is more effective than using actions to try to get away? I don't really buy that argument, unless you are advocating putting a ranged icon on Rasputina's December's Curse because having it be able to be cast in Melee causes her to forsake her own Melee Weapon.

I see your point, but if the goal is to make Seamus want to use his weapon instead of his spell then I'd advocate the following changes:

CB 6, 2/3/5, change Slit Jugular to Disembowel so dmg is still done even if the cards or stones are dropped. (On a personal note I dislike that there are multiple versions of common abilities. I sort of wish all instant death effects similar to Slit Jugular either all do no damage or make them all do dmg in addition to the effect.) Or give Seamus McMorning's ability to heal all damage done by the Bag o' Tools.

As to making him over the top... If you took all the changes I suggested, can you honestly say he would be more powerful than Mei Feng? Misaki? Kirai? Colette? Pandora? Really? I think you would have a hard time making that argument. I also understand that according to the powers that be that the game is balanced faction to faction and not master to master, but to me that should mean that each master fills a role within the line up, and currently Seamus doesn't.

Seamus is not the support master Kirai is. He's not the melee master McMorning is. He's not the control master the way Nicodem is. He's not as flexible as Yan Lo. He isn't even the tanking master he looks (to me) like he was designed to be as he is the easiest to kill Resser master in my experience. So outside of being a fan of the character and model (as many of us, me especially are) why would you ever mechanically chose Seamus over any other option?

I understand that Seamus isn't alone in not being a competitive master, and frankly I'd personally advocate for looking at all masters that aren't considered competitive and doing the best possible to make them so. Having all masters be viable choices for competitive play would not be a bad thing. They don't all have to be top tier, as I would argue that McMorning isn't close to top tier, but being able to bring your favorite master to a tournament, and not feeling that you are at a massive disadvantage from the choice of "your master" would be a very good thing. His avatar went some distance to helping this issue, but his low stone cache, and the fact that you cannot manifest him easily before turn 3 is a problem. Turns 2 and 3 are often the critical turns in my experience, and if turn 3 is when you actually just turn into your better version...

I realize that all this is wishful thinking, and I only make my passionate arguments for Seamus because frankly I don't know enough about other masters to make any useful comments about them. I also realize there are many people who seem to think Seamus is just fine, and they are totally entitled to their opinion, just as I am to mine. Which is currently that Seamus is a beginner's master that if you are interested in competitive play you should stay away from.

[Omenbringer]

Are you really saying that if Seamus gets engaged you really feel hitting something with his Bag o' Tools is more effective than using actions to try to get away?

If Seamus gets engaged in melee then why waste his AP trying to get out of melee when a simple Rotten Belle can do it so much more effectively.

He is definately not a tank (I would say that it has more to do with his abyssmally low Df than anything else) however the Vanilla crew is very fast and has a denial ability that can really screw things up in a lot of situations.

It would be nice if everything were competitive but I dont think Malifaux lends itself well to competitive play anyway (I mean look at the poor Malifaux Child).

[Gruesome]

It would be nice if everything were competitive but I dont think Malifaux lends itself well to competitive play anyway (I mean look at the poor Malifaux Child).

The first part of your sentence is the spirit behind this thread. The rest is defeatist and debatable. (Except Malifaux Child, the mascot of "Team Useless")

[Omenbringer]

Defeatest yes, however I have yet to see a Mini's game (and I play or have played most of them) that could accomplish anywhere near real balance. The only way to really balance everything against everything else is to have everything essentially the same and limit choices. The more "individuality" and choice a game has the less balanced it tends to be.

Look at Games Workshop (Warhammer or Fantasy) or Privateer Press (Hordes or Warmachine), these games have the exact same problems (there are several smaller games that could also be mentioned). Not everything is going to be competitive.

Though the aim should definately be to get things closer in balance, I think it is easier pulling things back rather than pushing things forward. Lastly, (though probably an un-popular opinion) I think Malifaux has reached a point where things need to be re-consolidated before adding any more models to the fray (there are some issues that are pushing 1-2 years without a resolution).

PS. I have a few ideas that might assist the Malifaux Child and make it a bit more of a choice (rather than a resounding "Hell no, never ever, even on a dare!").

[Fetid Strumpet]

Because a Belle luring him out of combat doesn't get him out of combat, it gets him charged. If Seamus can disengage he can potentially get away, which would allow him to dart in, make something insignificant, and then dart away.

Additionally if Seamus can disengage he can get distance, and then actually use his threatening weapons. I *might* Agree with you if Seamus had Companion: Belle as you could then use a belle to lure him out of combat, and then Seamus could go and either keep running, or again bring his threats to bear.

As it stands however my experience has been:

1: Seamus moves close enough to use any of his weapons.

2: Seamus Uses Weapons.

3: Seamus uses other Offensive abilility or walks 4" away.

4: Seamus gets charged.

5: Belle lures Seamus away.

6: Seamus gets charged.

Or

1: Seamus is engaged in melee.

2: Belle goes and Lures Seamus out.

3: Model formerly engaging Seamus charges Seamus.

Plus, because of Seamus' low cache (remember that without the avatar you are spending 6 stones just to have the full 8 stone cache and 8 stones if you bring the avatar, even before you've hired a single model) he is almost certainly going to get out activated, which gives you less ability to manipulate it so that the engaging model(s) go before the Belle pulls Seamus out.

I can certainly respect your opinion that Seamus is just fine as is, I hope you can respect my position that he isn't. I also agree that the chances of Wyrd taking another look at some of the less competitive masters and "fixing" them is most likely not going to happen for a variety of legitimate reasons. The point of the thread, which has been quiet for awhile, was to suggest ways in which he could be more competitive.

You could 100% be correct that the game isn't really suited for competitive play, which I'm slowly coming to agree with you on as only very specific masters regularly make it to the top of any seriously competitive tournaments. However if the official rules aren't balanced then we are left with just perhaps requiring regional house rules to make the game more fun for each particular area.

[Omenbringer]

That seems to explain the differences in opinion right there. Seamus (and crew) isn't really designed to wade in and kill things in mass (none of them have that kind of hitting power outside of Seamus' and the Copy Cat's gun). With Seamus it is more about luring specific models into the killing zone.

Keeping this in mind, I rarely push Seamus and the Belles forward until very late in the game (after the opposition has been whittled down significantly) and then only to complete the objectives. I pretty much sit in the deployment zone for the first few turns and spam Lure on specific models (one at a time and usually the "lynch pin" support models) until with in range of Seamus'/Copy Kat Killer's guns and Syblle's melee abilities. Between these three models it isn't difficult to remove at least one opponents model per turn.

Another big difference is I rarely max out Soulstones for the Cache, prefering more models to a few opprotunites for one model to produce better results.

Out activation is a problem for a lot of crews and there isn't really a great way to fix that (other than bringing more models to the fight yourself).

Edited November 13, 2012 by Omenbringer

[ClayWeeks]

I would be really surprised if the book 1 masters didn't get updated at some point. Even the Games Workshop games get updated with some regularity.

[Kadeton]

I would be really surprised if the book 1 masters didn't get updated at some point. Even the Games Workshop games get updated with some regularity.

Let's hope it happens sooner than that! My Dark Eldar waited 12 years...