Three Seamus Changes... Please?

[Dorian]

thats the sacrifice of doing certain schemes

Can you name one other scheme that forces you to take a certain model?

The only similar one I can see is kirai and Ikiryo, but she essentially comes with ikiryo.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Dorian

[Sandwich]

Can you name one other scheme that forces you to take a certain model?

I agree with your argument in its basic form, and I do think that the CCK is a subpar model, but I don't think that's its too far off in having a Belle kill an enemy model afflicted with Belle Spells.

Especially because they're fairly core to Seamus (3 seperate Talents on his card directly affect Belles and nothing else) so to say that he has a unique Scheme that requires him to use Models that he can self-sufficiently (In most cases) work with, isn't too bad.

I frankly can't see any scenario where summoning an additional Belle into the fray would be a bad idea, nor would starting with one be outright detrimental in practically every strategy available.

But again, I can understand the desire to have no limits with how you build a crew.

But then again, what do I know.

And why am I even arguing this point?

[Cyphre]

Having listend to the latest Cheated Fates podcast about the Seamus tactica and really liking it. The one thing that really hit me, was when the hosts said something like: "you need to play Seamus like Jack the Ripper. Hit and runs tactics".

With that in mind I think it would be cool to add the following two abilities to Seamus:

Stalker

From the Shadows

That being said I would like to must of the changes already proposed in the thread.

[Dorian]

Sandwich, my other main issue with the belle scheme is that it in no way requires Seamus even be taken, aside from saying it's his master specific scheme. A better change would be to have a belle kill a model under undead psychosis. Note I said better not a good change, to me it still forces you to take a specific model, (albeit you can potentially summon one). My main argument with scheme as is is it places restrictions on you that no one else has. With it rewritten the belle way it doesn't require seamus even be on the field, hardly fitting of a master specific scheme to not require the master at all plus mandating a specific type of model be present.

[DarcXON]

2) Seamus is a support master, I think his stats express this and are fine as is. I also don't like giving him Rot on the flintlock, just doesn't seem to fit his character. Seamus is a dapper "gentlemen", not a dirty necromancer. Something like this would be cool: Weapon, .50 Flintlock Pistol: This model receives on damage flips while within 4" of the target.

Buh wha huh?!

Have you read this man's fluff?! Dapper Gentleman my "insert spherical object"!

He would still be a support Master, as I didn't give him anymore damage, just more reliability.

[Pierowmaniac]

Id be happy with cache 4

Live for pain lossing its gun

And rewording necrotic ministrations to work when any model dies.

I agree with this and Dorians suggestion that the scheme needs changing, so you don't have to take CCK.

No need for the gun to be fired twice or any other increase to CB etc. If his terror got higher or spells gained anathema then there would be no need for the Avatar, so I don't see any reason to change them either.

[Dorian]

I agree with this and Dorians suggestion that the scheme needs changing, so you don't have to take CCK.

No need for the gun to be fired twice or any other increase to CB etc. If his terror got higher or spells gained anathema then there would be no need for the Avatar, so I don't see any reason to change them either.

The avatar turns him into a more damaging force. It also gives him innate anathema and everything else terrifying or a bonus to it. I don't think his terrifying needs to be higher but the anathema on the spell would make it much more useful.

[Blog]

I think he's fine the way he is.

[DarcXON]

I think he's fine the way he is.

He is ok as he is, but he is behind the curve of most tourney worthy Masters. He may be able to to do "things" but that doesn't make it effective. I'm not thinking that Wyrd is doing Power Creep on purpose. It seems that with the growth of the game the new models "flow" better than the old models.

I'm sure that when the next edition of Malifaux is written, we will see changes to old models. This is just an exercise in Mali Theory, at least that is how I see it.

[Dustcrusher]

Absolutely not, You now mandate that Seamus' crew include a belle. While most of times you will, it should not be FORCED on the person. Also this scheme is 100% completable with or without seamus.

Gee, don't hold back, tell me how you really feel *wink*

How about "Score if you kill a model that is being affected by Undead Psychosis and a negative Willpower modifier"? Seamus can do that by himself or take one of several models that can inflict a -Wp to make it easier. Either way, he is still necessary to get the points.

---------- Post added at 03:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:46 PM ----------

This is just an exercise in Mali Theory, at least that is how I see it.

Exactly. It reminds me that armchair rulemaking is a lot easier than the real thing.

[Gruesome]

I think he's fine the way he is.

That's cool.

What strategy do you think he is the best rezzer choice for?

I am not asking what you like to play him with, I am asking what strategy do you think that no other rezzer master is a better option for?

I'll give an example...

Nicodem is commonly thought of as the other "weak" rezzer master and I think that a very compelling argument can be made for him being perhaps our BEST choice for Shared Claim jump.

His ability to paralyze, drop Decay nukes(healing our troops, too) and replenish troops directly on the objective anytime one of ours OR theirs drops(Assuming theirs drop corpses), while remaining pretty darn safe make him arguably the best at the strat, IMO. It also helps mask one of his biggest weaknesses, which is his extreme slowness by taking place in the center of the board.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Gruesome

[Dorian]

Gee, don't hold back, tell me how you really feel *wink*

How about "Score if you kill a model that is being affected by Undead Psychosis and a negative Willpower modifier"? Seamus can do that by himself or take one of several models that can inflict a -Wp to make it easier. Either way, he is still necessary to get the points.

This is much better than your previous idea. Also I'm being tame here, you should have seen me ranting about some of the scheme things in the playtest forums, but you'll see those soon enough. The schemes I mean not my rants or anything that may or may not have affected them

[Guy in Suit]

Lots of access to healing and the .50 cal make him decent at Contain Power. Dr. Mac has to Expose himself to get the kill and Kirai struggles to get the kill herself.

[Boscotopia]

Without relying on the Belles or any other Minion, I would rather see something that involves killing with the gun and/or the bag. He is Jack the Ripper with a hand cannon.........

[Dorian]

Gee, don't hold back, tell me how you really feel *wink*

How about "Score if you kill a model that is being affected by Undead Psychosis and a negative Willpower modifier"? Seamus can do that by himself or take one of several models that can inflict a -Wp to make it easier. Either way, he is still necessary to get the points.

I like this much better than your previous one. Also trust me I am being tame. I can get much worse

[Gruesome]

Lots of access to healing and the .50 cal make him decent at Contain Power. Dr. Mac has to Expose himself to get the kill and Kirai struggles to get the kill herself.

So, does "decent" mean that you are saying that you think Seamus would be a better choice for Contain Power than McMourning? And "lots of healing" I am assuming you mean against living and undead specifically?

[Fetid Strumpet]

I would disagree the fact that Mcmorning has to expose himself more to heal than Seamus does. Speaking from the experiences I've had in my meta, while in a strictly, McMorning has to be in one specific place, vs Seamus not being in a particular place, that is true, however I find Seamus almost never gets to really effectively capitalize on his healing, and McMorning almost always does.

McMorning heals easier than Seamus, because firstly, Seamus' Necrotic Ministrations doesn't come into effect very often, because of the fact that you will very rarely have any appropriate type of models near you in the current environment that you want to die, and his other source of healing is negated in the same way that you negate the threat of his gun, lock him in combat. Live for Pain's range is 6" and Seamus' Melee range is 1" which means only targets between just over 1" and 6" can be hit with it, that's prime range for something to come on in an give Seamus a serious love tap. Plus it's a ranged attack, so cover modifiers come into play in its casting, and it's dmg spread is 2/2/5... not very scary at all.

I'm not saying you are wrong, just that my experiences in my meta environments give a different perspective.

Changes wise I'd support:

Giving him a larger cache, I'm not certain how large.

Removing the ranged icon from Live for pain.

Changing necrotic Ministrations to any model killed.

These changes would certainly be enough to make Seamus feel more playable, if not making him a top master, which isn't what anyone would really shoot for.

I'm not certain I can get behind the changing Trail of Fear to work on everything. aSeamus has an ability that does that, but is 2" less on the aura. I wouldn't want to take on too much of the flavor of his Avatar. For a similar reason, as much as it would be cool to have Anathema on Face of Death, I couldn't really get behind that either.

If we were just listing other abilities that it would be cool to have, I'd imagine a few things to make him feel more like a serial killer that is stupid hard to catch.

Whereas Colette and Kirai can move themselves and their crew around, I think it would be neat to have something that just moves Seamus around. Having Seamus be able to just dart aound the board, her one minute and gone the next would give him alot more character in the game, and also help make him a resser master of choice in a scheme or two, because I currently agree Seamus, other than sheer coolness, wouldn't be a Master to always consider over another Resser master in any of the current strats. Giving him an ability to dart all over the place and get hits in with his Excessive bleeding, and then dart away would make him great in things like Distract.

In a purely off the cuff brainstorming way it would be neat if Seamus had an ability similar to Von Schill's augmented jump, so he could rush in, hit you with excessive bleeding, and then dart away. Or if you locked him in combat he could still get out, and then hit you with Live for Pain.

Additionally, one of the things I REALLY liked about book2 models were how integrated they were with their Totems, and it would be really cool if Seamus had better synergy with his own, to the point where you always brought his totem.

Maybe something like if Seamus is engaged in combat he could take a zero action with a SS AR requirement and get a free 12" placement away, limited by an effect like From the Shadows, so he couldn't jump on top of a model, or use it to get on top of an objective, and in his place he leaves the Copycat Killer. It would be neat if the ability created the Copy Cat killer as well, possibly for another stone. Jut a thought, as the model is so characterful, and the potential is there to just have al sorts of movement tricks for Seamus because you never know where the real Seamus is.

Enough rambling, back to working on the Cole Porter Musical. =)

[rancor709]

I do like the idea of makign copy cat killer a summonable totem, would be very neat. I love the model ccK but I never take him. He just isn't worth 2 stones to me . But Fetid and I are on the same page with the changes we'd like to see which is good.

Scheme wise I'm not for any scheme that forces me to take a particular model,

Seamus to me is one of the best resser masters for, Distract, primarly because excessive bleeding can keep the enemy master from being significant and therefore not scoring for distract. However to get it off you have to put him in danger, which was an issue prior to avatar.

And Gruesome you have it right Nicodem is the master of the middle, I also like him with supply wagon. But I play nico a lot. but that's a whole other thread we could do would be what masters best at what.

[DarcXON]

Lots of access to healing and the .50 cal make him decent at Contain Power. Dr. Mac has to Expose himself to get the kill and Kirai struggles to get the kill herself.

See I don't understand why everyone always focuses on MacMourning going melee all the time. He has Wracked with Pain! Kirai I have to agree with ya, but aKirai is a completely different story.

[Blog]

That's cool.

What strategy do you think he is the best rezzer choice for?

I am not asking what you like to play him with, I am asking what strategy do you think that no other rezzer master is a better option for?

I'll give an example...

Nicodem is commonly thought of as the other "weak" rezzer master and I think that a very compelling argument can be made for him being perhaps our BEST choice for Shared Claim jump.

His ability to paralyze, drop Decay nukes(healing our troops, too) and replenish troops directly on the objective anytime one of ours OR theirs drops(Assuming theirs drop corpses), while remaining pretty darn safe make him arguably the best at the strat, IMO. It also helps mask one of his biggest weaknesses, which is his extreme slowness by taking place in the center of the board.

I like him for Contain Power, Distract, and Plant Evidence.

Contain Power: Lure from his belles, and his gun and whatever else is in the crew. Ive tailored a crew for Contain Power so it will be lots of hard hitting stuff. His gun adds to the hilarity.

Distract: same as Contain Power in some aspects. If you get close, I'm going to glock you. Plus He has a way to give out insignificant to the enemy master. Which is awesome.

Plant Evidence: Him, Molly, some belles, and dead doxys can really move down field. It's worked a number of times.

Edited August 7, 2012 by Blog

[Nyarlanthotep]

I think people may be missing half of the picture here. Seamus is very good at denying certain Strategies, so if you opponent has a Strat like Contain Power, Distract etc and you get a Strat that Seamus can achieve (even if it's not the best Strat for him) he might well still be your best choice.

[Gruesome]

Liking Seamus for something and him being the best at it are not the same thing.

Can he take out an enemy master in contain power with belles helping him?

Yep.

Can McMourning do it more reliably with a FREE ROTTEN BELLE for the Soul Stone difference? You betcha!

I can appreciate that people LIKE Seamus. So do I.

But, to my eye, not one thing mentioned as far as what strats he is capable of sound like something that could not be done easier with McMourning and the extra Rotten Belle he can buy on top of the rest of his crew for the difference in their caches...

All I asked was what people thought of the changes I proposed. It sounded like there were other changes that people might like. I am not sure I heard anyone say my changes would break him, but certainly there was the "fine as is" crowd chiming in which perhaps I could take as implied "broken with my changes".

Edited August 7, 2012 by Gruesome

[Blog]

Liking Seamus for something and him being the best at it are not the same thing.

Can he take out an enemy master in contain power with belles helping him?

Yep.

Can McMourning do it more reliably with a FREE ROTTEN BELLE for the Soul Stone difference? You betcha!

I can appreciate that people LIKE Seamus. So do I.

But, to my eye, not one thing mentioned as far as what strats he is capable of sound like something that could not be done easier with McMourning and the extra Rotten Belle he can buy on top of the rest of his crew for the difference in their caches...

But they both can achieve the strategy.

The changes you presented would be cool and would help him out but It won't change the fact that he can achieve strats already without the changes.

[osoi]

Seamus is my favourite Master and I love using him. He has suffered a little with the increasing meta of non living/undead models that are in the game but he can still function well (just some of his tools are rendered unusable)

IF changes were to be made these are all I would consider are needed and not neccessarily all of them.

• SS cache up to 4
  
• Trail of Fear change "living models" to "enemy models"
  
• Excessive Bleeding Trigger back on Flintlock as well (as it used to be many many moons ago)
  
• Face of Death change to 3 Anathema -> 14
  
• Remove from Live for Pain
  

The flintlock doesnt need to be able to be fired more than once per turn, it is as much an area denial piece as actual damage dealer. If in range I oten use Live for Pain more often as my Ca is higher then my Cb and I get the heal out of it.

Seamus just needs a couple of his tools tweaked with the new meta (mind you looking at a lot of the 10T models we might be seeing a lot more living models back on the board)

[Cyphre]

Seamus is my favourite Master and I love using him. He has suffered a little with the increasing meta of non living/undead models that are in the game but he can still function well (just some of his tools are rendered unusable)

IF changes were to be made these are all I would consider are needed and not neccessarily all of them.

• SS cache up to 4
  
• Trail of Fear change "living models" to "enemy models"
  
• Excessive Bleeding Trigger back on Flintlock as well (as it used to be many many moons ago)
  
• Face of Death change to 3 Anathema -> 14
  
• Remove from Live for Pain
  

The flintlock doesnt need to be able to be fired more than once per turn, it is as much an area denial piece as actual damage dealer. If in range I oten use Live for Pain more often as my Ca is higher then my Cb and I get the heal out of it.

Seamus just needs a couple of his tools tweaked with the new meta (mind you looking at a lot of the 10T models we might be seeing a lot more living models back on the board)

Very good suggestions IMO.

My own where more thematic changes, and not so much quick fixes like these