Proposed Hamelin Nerfs

[Hateful Darkblack]

I'm going to be testing out different modifications to Hamelin with friends in the near future.

I'd love playtesting and thoughts from others. I have a friend who has Hamelin and wants to play him, and loves the complexity and play style, but not the bad reputation.

Personally, I really want to buy Hamelin and start playing, but not until he's back in balance.

So here's the playtest I want to try. If it ends up working, I'll probably encourage local players to use it until an official change rolls out.

* * *

The Stolen and Obedient Wretch:

Change Abandon to:

"(all) Abandon: Sacrifice this model. Target model within 6" receives Insignificant until the model takes an (all) Interact action and discards two Control Cards. The model may prevent this by discarding two Control Cards immediately."

Malifaux Rat:

Add the following Ability:

"Teeming Hordes: This model cannot make Strikes on the turn it is Summoned."

* * *

My goal is to make the play style still Hamelin-like and very potent, while removing the most frustrating aspects for other players (which seem to be "Hamelin models come back instantly", "rats kill everything without fail" and "my models are unable to accomplish anything").

Your thoughts are very welcome.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Hateful Darkblack

[Ratty]

Er. is your aim to give him an infinite loop again?

[tadaka]

Indiscriminate Void was changed to prevent a number of jacked up tricks. I would not change it back.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Yeah, the original Indescriminate Void allowed Hamelin to take infinite turns. I thought Sandwich had a pretty decent idea for the fix.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Er. is your aim to give him an infinite loop again?

Oops! Yeah, taking that out.

[Omenbringer]

Have you looked at the several other threads that suggested "fixes" for Hamelin?

I know of at least 2 that had a lot of really good, positive suggestions that would tone him down without completely changing his feel (and both included several notable Hamelin players making the recomendations).

I would start there and build from there.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Thanks Omenbringer.

For reference, I think these are the threads where such ideas are discussed:

Would Hamelin loose me friends? (several ideas kicked around)

A quick fix for Hamelin (rats don't activate on the turn they're summoned)

Hamelin: is he really that hamy? (mostly a list of the NPE problems)

How to deal with playing as Hamelin (mostly a list of the NPE problems)

How to beat Hamelin the Plagued (magicpockets suggests ways to do so)

Polite suggestion Re Hamelin Errata (magicpockets suggests that we not forget about Avatar abilities)

This might be stupid, but Hamilin and Ht 1 (contains my favorite quote from thechosenone: "I play Hamelin and I did it not knowing what I was really doing. I've never lost with him nor really ever been in a position where I felt too challenged and thats all the fault of the crew mechanics. ")

Did they fix Hamelin? (old thread, where the infinite loop of Indiscriminate Void is discussed. The context I'd missed before.)

I haven't among those seen a lot of fixes, but what I have seen usually revolves around a few things that are common things-that-need-fixing:

- All the extra Activations rats get.

- Getting turned Insignificant so easily and irrevocably.

- Hamelin being immune to Ht 1 models, since that means Ophelia need not bother playing.

- Maybe his Counter-denial abilities.

Some things that are powerful but don't seem to need fixing:

- Hamelin's trick of "You can't attack anyone but me, and you can't attack me either."

- Hamelin's powerful card manipulation, which is both a strength and a weakness.

- Hamelin's super-Lure and super-Obey abilities.

- Nix's durability, movement, and debuffs.

- The Obedient Wretch card-cycling.

Anyway, I'm going to try it with the nerfs listed above, and see how it goes.

[Omenbringer]

The main one I was talking about was started by magicpockets.

It was called Hamelin is better than we think. The thread came out shortly after the crew was released.

There was another one with Sandwich as well though I cant seem to find it right now, it might have been in his Hamelin Tactica.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Omenbringer

[Hateful Darkblack]

Thanks. I found Sandwich's suggestions on page 20:

1) Make Lure Malifaux Citizen a Spell with CC 13, once per crew per turn.

2) Make Bully require a Wp -> 13 duel to target, instead of impossible.

3) Make the Malifaux Rats appear in the same spot as a killed model rather than B2B.

These all seem like good changes. I think "Rats can't Attack on the turn they are Summoned" belongs in there too.

Thanks for the pointers.

[Omenbringer]

No problem TedPro, Hamelin has been somewhat of a project for me for a very long while and I am eager to see him "fixed".

[Nyarlanthotep]

I would go with the version from Ukrocky's UK comp pack in favour of Sandwich's suggestions. I think they cover a lot of the same bases, but also deal with rats killing each other to out activate the enemy. But also matches Hamelin's Bully to match his hiring, which makes some sense, if you can't bully someone to work for you, you can't Bully them to not hit you.

• Hamelin's voracious rats is 4" range.

• Nix's Emptiness doesn't affect SS flips

• Rats only get positive attack flips on impetuous, not damage flips.

• Lure Malifaux Citizen becomes a (1) spell needing a 14 to cast.

• Rats cannot be activated the turn they are summoned

• Bully does not affect gremlins, constructs or masters

[Paddywhack]

Aaahhh, now I remember what kept me from Malifaux the first time. I remember looking at the system a while back, earlier in development, and reading the forums. There were so many issues with models brought back and game balance I decided to keep away. I came back after hearing 1.5 was coming out, that some of the balance issues had been dealt with by a responsive development team, and after finally reading more of the background. Its sad that one of the biggest balance issues is still there though with Hamelin.

I'm not backing out now - I really want to get some games in and try the card mechanic. I think I'll overall like the rules set and the more tactical nature of some of your choices. Guess I'll just have to hope that Wyrd keeps listening to customer issues and some errata comes out to balance Hamelin a bit. Admittedly, I'm taking this imbalance on the number of people and posts, both old and new, that continue to bring it up rather than personal experience. However, as a long time gamer I can see how his rules could be problematic just by looking at them.

Still - love the background and storyline and the new models are getting better and better!

[Ratty]

Don't worry we are aware of Hamelin having issues, but we are not going to rush through changes. We want to make sure the changes are right before rolling them out across the boards.

But we are looking at him.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Don't worry we are aware of Hamelin having issues, but we are not going to rush through changes. We want to make sure the changes are right before rolling them out across the boards.

But we are looking at him.

That's all good and well, but no one is accusing Wyrd of rushing things two year after the fact.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Don't worry we are aware of Hamelin having issues, but we are not going to rush through changes. We want to make sure the changes are right before rolling them out across the boards.

But we are looking at him.

Thanks, Ratty! You guys consistently do a great job of that and I am grateful.

Mostly I am just wanting to try unofficial changes in the meantime.

[Ratty]

Thanks, Ratty! You guys consistently do a great job of that and I am grateful.

Mostly I am just wanting to try unofficial changes in the meantime.

I can understand that, I would have a play with the UkRocky ones, they look a good start. Have a go with them. And you know tell us what you think.

[marshimartian]

Don't worry we are aware of Hamelin having issues, but we are not going to rush through changes. We want to make sure the changes are right before rolling them out across the boards.

But we are looking at him.

I definitely appreciate time well spent, making sure that an adjustment to Hamlin isn't a cuddle.

Personally, I believe Indiscriminate Void needs revisited. One of Hamlin's biggest weaknesses was having to keep his Stolen within 3", which made him extremely vulnerable to pulses, blasts, and even black blood. Not to mention limiting his movement, since the Stolen can't keep up.

Obviously my intention is not to bring back the infinite loop, but I think the changes to Indiscriminate Void removed one of his fundamental weaknesses.

[Guy in Suit]

I think just taking instinctual off the rats is much cleaner than trying to prevent them from attacking after being summoned. That just seems like a difficult thing to keep track of, as it is easy to have 6-8 rats on the table, sometimes over a dozen.

They are also always Slow, so I like the idea of just replacing a dead rat rather than summoning into base contact - prevents a lot of shenanigans and speeds up the game.

[CaptainAsh]

best cuddle i seen so far is jack daw yes he can make you lose his hands but if you get his awesome aura down to stop cheating and soulstoning then just hit him with everything you got i prefer levi and unnatural wasteing and then turn him into and spa yes he can return at a stolan but at 3 inch distance he pretty much a sorry state and if you can kill the other stolen before end of turn then of course hamlin cant return muhahahaaa!!!

sorry i like my post as i nearly pulled it off

[rancor709]

I like the suggestion ukrocky has i also like replace much better than summon. Id like to see hamlin actually played more and it be enjoyable for both sides

[Ratty]

Replace wouldn't technically work, as a Replaced model comes in with the same Wds as the model it's replacing. So technically you would just end up with infinitely replacing Rats.. Rat gets reduced to 0 Wds, is replaced with a Rat that has well, 0 Wds... that gets replaced with a Rat with 0 Wds.

Also Effects would carry over, which could cause, admittedly some interesting Rats.

[lifeblood]

An easy alternative to that is to say that whenever a malifaux rat would recieve slow, it instead recieves paralyze.

Not only does this fix the looping of rats, it adds a weakness. And weaknesses are something of which Hamelin needs more.

[omnivision6]

Or make it so rats cant come out of other rats. Something like "whenever a non-vermin model is killed..."

Ive never had too much of an issue with Hamelin. Mainly cause I dont care about "broken" stuff. Game is just for fun. Even "competitive" play.

Then change the rat catchers ability to spawn a new set of rats with his kill all ability.

[Alviaran]

Talking with my (admittedly new) Hamelin players, another thing I dislike is the way he turns his entire crew Significant just for existing (him AND Nix). It lets his entire crew objective run where I have to be more careful with my model choices. I need significant models but if I have too small of a number, especially with his huge number of significants, he just Insignificants them and I cannot even play the Strategy sometimes.

I like the flavour of him being a bully that makes his little guys capable (a sort of, more scare of him than they are of me type deal). But why is this just for him being on the table? I think it should be an aura, on him and Nix. Hamelin's should be larger obviously, but it makes their positioning more important and gives more pieces that can be targeted to remove effects. If I down Nix and then Hamelin, he might come back but he may come back out of position, letting me get the upper hand on that side of the board for the objectives.

Just my two ss on one annoying, unfun issue I've had with him.

(On a tangential note, I wonder if Pandora changes are going to be coming. I played her for the first time the other day and beat someone who has been playing a LOT longer than me without much effort. I felt dirty. I like her concept but am hoping she gets hit somehow to take her off the big NPE list along with Hamelin. Both cool masters with really cool concepts and unique play styles. Would love to just see them be more fun)

[Paddywhack]

I like the flavour of him being a bully that makes his little guys capable (a sort of, more scare of him than they are of me type deal). But why is this just for him being on the table? I think it should be an aura, on him and Nix. Hamelin's should be larger obviously, but it makes their positioning more important and gives more pieces that can be targeted to remove effects. If I down Nix and then Hamelin, he might come back but he may come back out of position, letting me get the upper hand on that side of the board for the objectives.

oooh. I like that idea. Yes, he's a bully, but the idea of an aura fits better with that theme imo. That would, as you said, make his and Nix's placement that much more important. nice idea.